En el tercer episodio de nuestra serie sobre la Fuerza Laboral Forestal Latina, la presentadora invitada Gaby Eseverri conversa con Manuel Machado, el Coordinador del Programa de la Fuerza Laboral de Recursos Naturales del Programa de Extensión de la Universidad Estatal de Oregón. Este episodio fue posible gracias al apoyo de Rivershed SPC, y estamos agradecidos por su ayuda para hacer realidad esta serie.

Manuel trabaja con organizaciones comunitarias en todo el Noroeste del Pacífico para desarrollar materiales educativos bilingües, centrados en el aprendizaje, dirigidos a trabajadores forestales con visas H-2B y a trabajadores inmigrantes del sector forestal. Al mismo tiempo, desarrolla programas que crean conciencia sobre la mano de obra de la fuerza laboral forestal. Su trabajo tiene como objetivo hacer que este empleo sea más seguro y equitativo, particularmente a través del involucramiento de la fuerza laboral forestal latina en Oregón.

Gaby Eseverri es una periodista ubicada en Missoula, Montana. Ella también colabora en la producción del podcast del Parque Nacional Glacier, Headwaters, el cual recomendamos ampliamente.

En este episodio, Gaby y Manuel conversan sobre la fuerza laboral forestal latina en el Noroeste del Pacífico, incluyendo la historia de esta fuerza laboral, cómo el estatus H-2B y la condición migratoria contribuyen a una cultura de explotación arraigada en el miedo a la deportación. También analizan los riesgos físicos, económicos y sistémicos que enfrenta esta fuerza laboral, y cómo el modelo y la creciente demanda de trabajos de resiliencia forestal dependen en gran medida de trabajadores H-2B e inmigrantes que con frecuencia reciben salarios bajos y son fácilmente explotados. Además, reflexionan sobre por qué la solidaridad no solo es importante, sino necesaria en estos tiempos.

Una nota: Este episodio fue grabado en noviembre de 2025, apenas unos meses después del incidente en el estado de Washington en el que dos bomberos forestales fueron detenidos por la Patrulla Fronteriza (la migra) mientras trabajaban en un incendio forestal activo. Puede encontrar más información sobre este incidente en el enlace.

https://abc7.com/post/patrulla-fronteriza-arresta-2-bomberos-mientras-combatian-incendio-forestal-en-el-estado-de-washington/17685497/

Manuel works with community-based organizations across the Pacific Northwest to develop bilingual learner-centric educational materials for H-2B and immigrant forestry sector workers, while developing programming that raises awareness of the labor-intensive forest workforce. His work aims to make this work safer and more equitable, particularly through engagement with the Latine forestry workforce in Oregon.

Gaby Eseverri is a journalist based in Missoula, Montana, and originally from Miami. In addition to print journalism, she also helps produce Glacier National Park's Headwaters Podcast, which we highly recommend you check out. 

In this episode, Gaby and Manuel spoke about the Latine forestry workforce in the Pacific Northwest, including the workforce's history, how H-2B and immigrant status contributes to a culture of exploitation rooted in a fear of deportation, as well as the nature of forestry and fire work. Gaby and Manuel also discuss the physical, economic and systemic risks faced by this workforce, and how the model and increasing demand for forest resilience work—which includes post-fire restoration, thinning/wildfire risk reduction, and other essential forestry tasks—relies heavily on often underpaid and easily-exploited H-2B and immigrant workers. 

Please note that we will be releasing a third and final episode on this topic in a few days. This final episode—also hosted by Gaby with guest Manuel— will be published in Spanish, and will focus more on the resources, training and educational materials Manuel has created and made available for the Latine workforce on Oregon and beyond. 

Another note: This episode was recorded in November 2025, just a few months after the incident in Washington State when two wildland firefighters were detained by Border Patrol on an active wildfire. More information about this incident can be found at the links below. 

https://utahnewsdispatch.com/2025/08/30/immigration-raid-at-washington-blaze-stokes-fear-in-wildfire-crews-nationwide/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-agents-arrest-fire-crew-members-washington-wildfire-rcna227797

A few highlights from the conversation (full transcript can be found here): 

"So a lot of the work that the Latine workforce is involved in what land management agencies refer to as forestry services. So this includes everything from planting work, hazardous fuels reduction work, tree thinning, forest restoration, pesticide application. Also, increasingly they're doing more work in fire suppression. So working on the fire line, much of that labor intensive work."

"Many of these contractors are based in Southern Oregon, and although they're based here in Medford, in the Rogue Valley, and they travel all over the Pacific Northwest and the US, the workers themselves are brought primarily from Mexico and increasingly from Guatemala and Central America as h-2b visa workers. So the amount of h-2b visa workers is increasing."

"The way the forest service handles contracting often awards the lowest bidder, and although this does ensure a lower price per acre, often means that the workers don't get paid as much as I believe they deserve."

"With undocumented workers, you know there's that added layer of vulnerability, because they face deportation, and although they can change employers because they have specified documents which allow them that flexibility to change employers, if the employer, at any time, finds out that they are documented, they face that added risk of using that as a threat against them. Given the policies that we're seeing, there's likely to be an increase in labor violations and just less enforcement due to these policies we're seeing under the Trump administration."

"It's really just an entire system that's turned on them at a time when I think their work so important, right? They are literally the ones planting trees after fire, or the ones who are fighting fire, the ones who are implementing those treatments that reduce fire risk and restore our forests."

"I think a good example (of something actionable) could be for firefighters. We often hear them advocating for better pay and working conditions…but it's important for them to understand that, you know, if an increasing portion of the firefighting workforce is reliant on h-2b visa workers that don't have the same rights, well, then what can they do to build solidarity with those H-2b visa workers? A rising tide will lift all boats, so they have to really consider all of these different segments of the workforce if they want to be more effective at actively bargaining for those working conditions and better pay."

"So I always ask the workers themselves, what's something that you would like the general public or policymakers or decision makers to know? What would you tell them, if you had the opportunity to speak with them? The most common responses that I've gotten is that they just want more for the important work that they do." 

But what's often lost in this conversation is *who* is doing this work, and the future of that—at times, fraught—workforce in the face of increasing ecosystem needs in the West. It's one thing to say we need to get something done, but another thing entirely to know where that work is coming from, and the conditions those workers are facing. How can we ensure these folks are supported and being treated equitably in often unsafe, fast-paced and high-exposure jobs?

In the Pacific Northwest, a not-insignificant portion of forestry sector workers are Latine, many on H2B visas, which are temporary, non-agricultural working visas. Today's guest Emily Jane (E.J) Davis—along with co-authors Carl Wilmse, Manuel Machado and Gianna Alessi—aimed to learn more about these workers in a paper published in 2023 called Multiple Stories, Multiple Marginalities: The Labor Intensive Forest and Fire Stewardship Workforce in Oregon. 

What they found is that this type of employment leaves workers vulnerable to exploitative labor practices and working conditions, a lack of training and resources that result in critical leadership and safety gaps on site, and a lack of power or ability to organize or unionize to improve conditions. Recent ramping up of immigration enforcement is also having an impact on this workforce, as evidenced by the DHS raid on a fire in Washington State this summer. Rigoberto Hernandez Hernandez, one of the two firefighters who were detained, was released four weeks later. The other—José Bertín Cruz-Estrada, who'd worked in fire since 2019 but was undocumented—was deported to Mexico after two months of detainment.  Both worked on Oregon-based contract fire crews. 

In this episode, EJ—who is an associate professor at Oregon State University and the fire program director for the OSU extension—and I dive more deeply into some of the key takeaways of her research, some of the practical applications of that research through her extension position, and what the future of this research looks like. We discussed labor issues more broadly in the forestry and fire workforces, and how these challenges are often amplified considerably for marginalized communities in these positions, and particularly for the Latine workforce. 

E.J.'s biggest takeaway? If we truly hope to increase forest treatments and recovery work to the scale needed to make a meaningful difference, we need to not only acknowledge the challenges of the folks who are actually doing that work, but do everything we can to address those challenges and develop a more sustainable forest sector workforce for the work that awaits us.

In our conversation, River and I talked about how firefighting allowed them to heal and grow, in a way, from the addiction, homelessness and violence that they had experienced in their youth. We spoke about some of the more academic themes of the book, including how colonization really informed our modern culture of fire suppression and—by extent—the culture of hotshotting. We spoke about the importance of Indigenous practices and land stewardship in righting this ship, as it were, and chatted a bit about our own experiences with hotshot culture and how it framed our experiences on fire crews. 

Click here to buy River's book HOTSHOT: A Life on Fire!

Click here to read an excerpt of HOTSHOT, which was published in High Country News in August.

Click here for River's book tour dates over the next few weeks. 

Click here to support Life with Fire's Patreon, which is helping keep this ship afloat while Amanda is in grad school. 

Here's another link to Kelly's book in case you missed the first one ;) 

Here's the Life with Fire Patreon, in the event you'd like to support me through the transition to grad school (where I will continue to publish podcast episodes, and will have much more access to lots of smart fire people as I'll be in Missoula!)

For a quick primer, the Dragon Bravo Fire started three miles north of the North Rim of the Grand Canyon during a lightning storm on July 5th. On Sunday, it destroyed the historic Grand Canyon Lodge and dozens of other buildings in the adjacent complex. It was being managed for resource benefit, or was in other words a "managed fire". I’m not going to go into all the details on the fire itself, but here’s a thorough, measured analysis from my friend Zeke at the Lookout regarding what took place over the week or so that the fire was being “managed for resource benefit” (I’ll get into what this means in a minute). Zeke also provides some of the behind the scenes context on wildfire decision making and some other educated thoughts that are very deserving of your time.

Stephen, as you'd expect, had some great perspective to share about this event. While we avoided armchair quarterbacking the decision making on the fire, Stephen was able to speak a bit about the decades of precedent for this kind of wildfire tragedy in the Southwest, about the background of managed fire use in the National Parks, and how important managed fire can be to reducing wildfire risk—but only if we acknowledge the limitations of managed fire policy and take more strides to improve our processes and learn from our mistakes. 

One of the improvements Stephen advocates for is being more forthcoming about managed fire with the public, which would include agencies being very clear about what managed fire is and isn't, what the objectives of managed fire typically are, what preparations have been made to make managing a fire the right decision and also—importantly—that mistakes can happen and how we can better prepare in the event that they do. 

The biggest takeaway from this episode is that we've done a poor job of building trust with the public, and especially so around the practice of managed fire. Perhaps now is a good time to have that conversation, and to figure out how we can reframe this conversation so that people get more of a glimpse at managed fire when it goes right?

For more background on Stephen, check out his TED Talk on how fire shapes everything, or this great essay he published in Scientific American last spring.

In this episode, we spoke with Butte County Fire Safe Council Executive Director Taylor Nilsson. Butte County, CA has seen more catastrophic fire in the last eight years than most places in the West, possibly even the world. Starting with the Camp Fire in 2018 (85 killed, 14,000 homes lost), then the North Complex in 2020 (16 killed, 2,300 structures lost), then the Park Fire in 2024 (700+ structures destroyed), Butte County has seen 50% of its Wildland Urban Interface impacted by wildfire in the last seven years, and over 90% of its WUI impacted since 1999. This being the case, folks in this area have a deep understanding not only of preparing for wildfire, but of the long process of recovering from it—while knowing from experience that they simultaneously need to be preparing for the next one. 

Taylor spoke about the challenges of preparing for more fire while also recovering from—in Butte County's case—multiple deeply impactful wildfires that communities are still reeling from. In what has become an increasingly common occurrence in California, communities can still be deep in the recovery phase as a fire scar cycles back into susceptibility to wildfire. The Camp Fire scar, for example, is becoming increasingly at risk to more wildfire, particularly as these previously forested landscapes have become more brush-dominated post-fire. 

Reforestation and restoration in such landscapes (particularly those undergoing a vegetation type conversion) is tricky, and Taylor speaks to this too—to the realities of salvage logging and how this practice can fit into sound restoration planning, as well as to the lack of technology to handle the significant biomass that needs to be removed to make recently un-burned landscapes in Butte County more resilient to future fire. We talked about the immense community trauma, and how Taylor and the Butte County staff have worked through their own healing processes while facing this community trauma firsthand. 

Above all, this episode highlighted the critical work that Fire Safe Councils in California do, in part because they are working one-on-one with community members in many cases and can therefore be a consistent, guiding presence through the wildfire preparedness, response and recovery phases. Communities and residents recovering from wildfire need a sustained, familiar presence like this, and this is exactly the type of thing that reduces recovery timelines and helps communities heal. 

As we wrap up this series, we want to once again thank Fire Aside for their support of the last three episodes of the podcast. Support like this allows us to keep this thing rolling, and we can't express how grateful we are to our supporters—past and present, including on Patreon! Thank you, thank you, thank you for believing in what we're doing!

Check out Butte County FSC on their socials (linked below)! Whether you live in Butte County or not, I think their website and some of their programming is very replicable elsewhere, so give them a follow and remember—imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buttefiresafe

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/buttefiresafe/?hl=en

Website: https://buttefiresafe.net

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/butte-county-fire-safe-council/

Time Stamps: 

00:00 - Episode Start
00:42 - Amanda Intro
07:39 - Taylor's Background
09:45 - Recent Fires In Butte County
12:08 - Dealing with Hazard Trees
14:56 - Trauma-Informed Care Post-Fire
17:36 - Recovery Takes Multiple Years
18:52 - Current Butte County Work On Burn Areas
21:45 - Cost Of Removing Hazard Trees
22:41 - Presence of Blue Stain In Recently Burned Areas
24:56 - Salvage Logging as Part of Restoration Planning
25:45 - Mill Infrastructure In Butte County
28:26 - Butte County Population Response
29:47 - Participation Rates in Fire Safe Council Programming
31:35 - How Fire Aside Has Bolstered The Work the Butte County FSC Is Doing
38:04 - Communities Are Struggling With Staffing—What Does This Mean For Recovery?
40:12 - Fire Safe Council In Collaboration with Other Local Entities
41:06 - Butte County Collaborative Group
43:51 - The Importance of Sharing Lessons Learned 
45:43 - Prioritizing the Knowledge and Practices Of Local Indigenous Tribes
46:45 - Amanda Outro
47:32 - End Of Episode

Fire Aside was developed in Marin County, CA alongside the county fire department there, a partnership that was spurred by Jason's own interest in improving the wildfire resilience of his own property and not knowing exactly where to start. That was in 2020—now, Fire Aside is being used by over 100 departments in nine states to increase the efficiency of their home assessment processes and improve engagement with residents who want to improve their defensible space and home hardening. 

It's become clear that increasing resilience actions at the neighborhood level, rather than just the homeowner level, is the best way to meaningfully reduce risk in the WUI, where fires often spread home to home rather than via vegetation; this scale piece is a huge part of what Fire Aside does, and is what makes it such a compelling technology in an era of urban conflagrations like those in LA this winter (or Boulder, Lahaina, Paradise etc before). Jason and I spoke about the impetus for developing the platform, as well as how it can potentially be utilized to help inform decision making and even funding needs at the city or county level. Down the road, the data procured from Fire Aside may even be useful in informing state policy or other big picture decision making. (Disclaimer: Fire Aside does not own any of the data that is compiled through the app/platform. Residents and departments using the platform own this data.)

We appreciate Fire Aside's work and their support of this series on community resilience—if you or your organization are responsible for wildfire risk assessments, we really can't recommend this technology enough. 

A few action items!

Consider following Fire Aside on Linkedin. 

Check out some Fire Aside testimonials on Youtube. 

Slightly unrelated but please consider supporting justice and exoneration for firefighter Brian "Hakiym" Simpson. You can read about the case here. You can sign the petition here, or donate to a local mutual aid organization supporting Hakiym here. 

This episode explores a number of big, meaty topics you've likely been hearing about in the wildfire space, from wildfire insurance to categorical exclusions to NEPA to wildfire resilience policy in the era of urban conflagrations like those in LA this winter. Our fearless leader on this journey is former CAL FIRE Chief Deputy Director Chris Anthony, who has worked with some major players in the wildfire space since retiring in 2023. His consultation clients have included entities in the nonprofit, academic, philanthropic, agency and private industry (including Fire Aside) spaces, while also serving as a board member for the Earth Fire Alliance and California Fire Safe Council.

Chris has a deep understanding of wildfire resilience at both the landscape scale (think fuels management and big-picture restoration projects) as well as at the community scale (think home hardening, defensible space and how counties and cities engage with homeowners). This breadth of experience has made him instrumental in informing and advancing critical wildfire policy at the state level in California, while also getting involved in projects that leverage technology to help us better understand and mitigate risk to wildfire. 

After 30 years in CAL FIRE, his goals upon leaving the agency were simple: 

1. Bring fire back to fire-adapted ecosystems.

2. Build more understanding around what strategies and mitigative actions can meaningful reduce risk in communities.

3. Develop and support policies that help us meet these two goals.

4. Find innovators and technologies that can help scale up some of the critical actions we need to take to move the needle on fire resilience. 

We would like to extend a huge thank you to Fire Aside for sponsoring this series. Fire Aside is a home assessment platform that helps fire departments, conservation districts and other entities perform more thorough wildfire risk assessments, while also providing a platform for directly engaging homeowners in taking meaningful action to improve their resilience. Learn more at FireAside.com.

Our guest on this topic is Collin Haffey, the Post Fire Recovery Program Manager for the Washington DNR, who prior to working with the DNR worked as the Forest and Watershed Health Coordinator for the New Mexico Forestry Division during the catastrophic 2022 Hermits Peak-Calf Canyon Fire. This fire burned over 340,000 acres in largely rural areas that were also, subsequently, impacted by intense debris flows and mudslides, spurred by monsoonal rain events only weeks after the fire burned through the area. These debris flows were in many cases more devastating to residents in these areas than the fires themselves—they destroyed wells and water systems, devastated roads and other infrastructure and destroyed hundreds of homes, including century-old adobe homes that had housed multiple generations of native New Mexicans. If you're interested in learning more about the HP-CC Fire, I highly recommend the in-depth reporting of Patrick Lohmann at Source NM. I also wrote about the post-fire impacts of the Hermits Peak-Calf Canyon, as well as potential policy solutions, for Land Lines Magazine back in 2023. 

For some background: post-fire concerns range from erosion and flooding events that can have major impacts on infrastructure and watersheds (and systems), but also includes the process of reforestation, erosion reduction and reducing the incursion and spread of invasive species in delicate post-fire landscapes. 

How communities prepare and plan for these challenges can make an immense difference in how quickly they recover, and Collin's work focuses heavily on encouraging communities to better prepare not just for wildfire, but for what comes after it. 

One of Collin's biggest projects at present is the After the Fire Washington website, where you can find tried-and-true recovery practices, resources for landowners, community members and community leaders, case studies and other information. 

Finally, if you'd like to read a bit more about Collin's experiences and insights gained from seeing the HP-CC Fire impacts first hand, check out this great blog post he wrote for the Fire Adapted Communities Learning Network: Stuck in the Mud: Gaps in Post-Fire Recovery Programs - Fire Adapted Communities Learning Network

Timestamps: 

00:00 - Episode Start 

00:38 - Amanda Monthei Intro 

06:54 - Start of conversation—Collin's background 

08:17 - Gaps In post-fire conversation, preparedness and planning 

09:57 - Lessons From Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak Fire

12:41 - Good examples of post-fire response 

14:25 - Need someone to direct post-fire tasks

16:14 - Is the only way to learn about recovery through experience? 

16:52 - Suppression vs. recovery teams—a need for both

18:39 - The importance of community recovery collaboratives 

21:00 - Developing a CWPP 

24:35 - Overthinking CWPP documents

26:35 - Common post-Fire challenges 

29:02 - Managing mental & emotional trauma (both community and practitioner) during the post-fire period

33:12 - How community and resident relationships to the land change after wildfires

32:33 - Fostering a love of place after (and despite) wildfire

35:03 - Getting community involved in post-fire preparedness

36:43 - Disconnect between FEMA & local organizations 

38:36 - What does a community that is well-prepared for post fire challenges look like?

Riva is vice president of Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, which advocates and provides a voice for the wildfire workforce. Consider donating to support their work!

New Mexico's recent relationship with fire has been fraught with distrust in the aftermath of the 2022 Calf Canyon Hermits Peak Fire, which started from an escaped prescribed fire and an escaped pile burn. Lindsey's career has been bookended by such events, having started his career in Los Alamos, NM in the aftermath of the 2000 Cerro Grande Fire, which also started as an escaped prescribed fire. This has allowed him to witness first hand how public trust has ebbed and flowed around the use of prescribed fire. It's also presented opportunities for him to help shape and better understand the many mixed emotions New Mexicans have around this topic.

Lindsey spoke to how the intersecting cultures and management values across New Mexico—including Indigenous peoples, the Hispanic population and, well, white people—presents challenges but also opportunities in trying to extoll the merits of prescribed fire.

"There’s no dispute amongst native New Mexicans who live off the land—there is a recognition that fire is important and necessary, but there's also a fear," Lindsey, who is himself a member of the Zuni Pueblo, said.

Lindsey also shared how his agency is scaling up forest treatments through collaboration, and establishing priority landscapes to implement landscape-scale resilience projects.

If you'd like to learn more about acequias, which are mentioned in this episode, I can't recommend Patrick Lohmann's reporting enough. He is a journalist with Source NM and did some stellar reporting on the impacts of the Calf Canyon Hermits Peak Fire on acequias and traditional (and often rural) communities in northern New Mexico. 

Dr. Jose "Pepe" Iniguez, a research ecologist at the Rocky Mountain Research Station, is our fearless leader on this journey through the fraught, occasionally contentious world of managed fire. Pepe has had a long career studying wildfire impacts in forested landscapes while building a better understanding of how our public lands have been shaped by disturbances like wildfire. His takeaway? We can't effectively manage forests at the landscape scale without the help of wildfires, and managed fire is the most feasible answer to the question of how we reach "scale" in our ability to build landscape resilience.

In short, managed fires are often lightning-caused wildfires that are determined to be burning in an area that is not likely to impact nearby communities, infrastructure, watersheds etc. As such, they are not managed with "full suppression" as the main priority. They are heavily monitored by ground resources (if the fire is accessible) and aircraft, though on occasion these fires become "wildfires for resource benefit" merely because there aren't enough resources to attend to them. See: the 2021 fire season in California. In many cases, these types of fires burn in wilderness areas where fire suppression can be extremely difficult because of a lack of access, and which is made all the more difficult by designations that disallow the use of things like chainsaws and helicopters. 

Want more information about managed fire? Check out this fact sheet from our sponsor for this episode, the Southwest Fire Science Consortium. 

This recent blog post from the Fire Adapted Communities Learning Network is also very much worth the read if you're hungry for more context around managed fire. This blog was  written by a recent guest of the podcast, Zander Evans from the Forest Stewards Guild. 

A huge thank you to both the Southwest Fire Science Consortium and the Arizona Wildfire Initiative for supporting this episode and all of the other episodes from our Fire in the Southwest Series. 

Timestamps: 

00:00 - Episode Start 

01:31 - Pepe's Background 

07:56 - 1996 Fires

11:04 - The Early Days Of Managed Fire 

14:01 - Thinning Versus Fire, Thinning PLUS Fire

16:00 - Prescribed Fire Scales As A Tool 

17:40 - Pepe's View On Managed Fire 

19:48 - Lessons Learned with Managed Fire

22:24 - The Benefit of Starting Small in Building A Managed Fire Program 

25:24 - Experimental Forests 

28:27 - Hotshot Crews Work On the Long Valley Experimental Forest 

30:47 - Smaller, More Local Incident Management Teams Often Work Better 

32:56 - Social Implications Of Managed Fires 

35:29 - Thoughts on Improving Public Perception of Managed Fires  

38:30 - Prescribed Fire and Managed Fire Have Different Liabilities

40:06 - Do We Need A Fire Influencer? Pepe suggests Britney Spears. 

41:37 - The Work of the Southwest Fire Consortium 

49:50 - Episode End

Guest Matt Lynde—a helicopter operations specialist for the Forest Service's Regional Office in California—gave us a run-down on why some fires have huge airshows and others have almost none, and even tackled a few common misconceptions about the use of aircraft in fighting wildfires. Among these misconceptions is the idea that aircraft put fires out and that if you don't see aircraft on a fire, that means it's not a high priority for fire managers. As Matt explains in this episode, there's a ton that goes into the decisions on where aircraft goes and when, and noted how challenging it is to prioritize certain fires over others during big fire seasons when resources are limited.

Matt also spoke about his career as a helicopter coordinator, and how he climbed the ranks from being on engines and helitack for the Forest Service early in his career to finding an interest in aerial supervision and coordination later in his career. If you have an interest in working on the aerial side of things within the Forest Service, this is a good episode for you.

This episode of Life with Fire was created in conjunction with Region Five of the Forest Service, for a project that explores some of the common public misconceptions about aerial firefighting. The full Storymap can be found here. 

Timestamps: 

00:00 - Episode Introduction

05:07 - Matt's Introduction And Background 

06:51 - Helicopter Coordinator Position Details

08:38 - Matt's Initial Interest In Aviation 

10:22 - Changes In Air Attack 

12:19 -  Safety Procedures And Risk Factors of Aerial Firefighting

14:45 - Misconceptions About Aircraft Firefighting

17:36 - Benefits Of Helicopter Coordination

18:53 - Fire Retardant Use—Benefits and Limitations

20:14 - How Aircraft Supports Firefighters On The Ground 

23:32 - Other Limitations To Fighting Fire With Aircraft 

25:06 - What Factors Inform Availability of Aerial Support 

28:02 - Lack Of Resources Problem 

30:03 - Outro 

We spoke to Watch Duty CEO John Mills about the Watch Duty app as well as fire technology more broadly, and gave him a chance to respond to some listener questions from PIOs, wildland firefighters, community resilience experts and others in the Life with Fire community. His responses are about as no-BS as they come, and he provided an honest assessment of where the app is currently and where he'd like it to be in the near and far-off future. A few things they're adding in the near future include a version of the app just for first responders, which John speaks to in the episode, while in the longer term he's looking forward to exploring how Watch Duty can provide more opportunities for community education about wildfire and wildfire resilience. 

Timestamps: 

07:33 - Interview starts, John explains his background in Silicon Valley

10:10 - The Beginnings Of Watch Duty 

12:12 - John's experiences of the Walbridge Fire 

13:21 - Watch Duty's Functionality 

16:20 - How they find reporters/contributors for Watch Duty 

18:06 - Concerns and Questions from PIOs/PAOs 

21:07 - Gaining Trust And Users 

22:25 - The Future of The App

25:01 - Upcoming Watch Duty Features   

26:48 - Public Education Features 

29:40 - Watch Duty's Role In The Fire Tech Space 

34:48 - John's Thoughts On the Fire Tech Industry 

42:39 - Watch Duty's Main Benefit Is Efficiency 

47:16 - How People Use Watch Duty 

49:50 - The Reason They Don't Allow Comments on Watch Duty

50:49 - Outro 

Zander and Amanda spoke about the role of the Forest Stewards Guild in helping provide more capacity for often resource-strapped agencies, as well as how their roles are shifting with the legacy and rise in megafires like the CC/HP Fire. We discussed the Guild's objective to connect work on the ground to policy, while creating a network of land stewards that can learn from each other and share resources, lessons learned and other critical information that can help others dealing with similar issues across the country. 

We covered a lot in this episode, and in classic form, Amanda asked many difficult-to-answer questions that Zander did a great job of tackling—including questions about trauma-informed community engagement, how to continue to get good work done within a legacy of escaped prescribed fires and how communities can more effectively prepare for the "post-fire" piece of the resilience equation. 

Things mentioned in the episode:

Santa Fe Fireshed

GoFundMe for Smokey Bear Hotshots. Many of the crew's members tragically lost their homes in the fires near Ruidoso, NM last week. They were responding to the fire when this happened. Please support if you're able!

Timestamps: 

07:56 - The Guild's Intersection With Wildfire Management

13:38 - Engagement Practices Since Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak

15:38 - Keeping Agency Folks In Same Roles/Locations Would Help Collaborative Efforts

16:44 - Guild Partnership With The Forest Service

19:27 - Hermits Peak Calf Canyon Fire Aftermath And Community Perception of Prescribed Fire

23:57 - Zander's Recommendations For Other Fire Prone Communities

26:12 - Santa Clara Pueblo Takeaways

28:00 - Community Wildfire Protection Plans (CWPPs) Should Include Post Fire Element

30:20 - Preplanning For Post Fire Impacts and Things To Consider In Pre Planning

37:14 - Encouraging People To Go Back Outside After Experiencing Fire Trauma

39:05 - The Santa Fe Fireshed and Using Watershed Concerns to Frame Management Practices

44:24 - Implementation Takes Community Engagement!

This topic is especially prescient right now, as the Wildfire Commission Report was explicit in its recommendations to incorporate more Indigenous knowledge into land management (see: recommendations 12, 15, 16). However, while this directive is a step in the right direction, actually accomplishing it will require overcoming significant workforce and budget constraints at the ground level, especially within tribal communities.

Jon and Amanda spoke about what this integration of different management practices can look like, how to overcome those barriers, the differences between cultural and agency fire, as well as the fundamental question of whether or not the differences between cultural and agency fire can be meaningfully reconciled. Jon also provided a great example of this integration working (the San Carlos Apache Tribe's use of Crisis Strategy/Infrastructure Bill funding). Finally, we wrapped the episode up with a discussion about the nature of federal land agency employment, which all but requires employees to move locations every 3-5 years to move up in their careers. Jon spoke about how the collaborative/shared stewardship pathway that is needed to meaningfully integrate Indigenous management into Western management requires a wholesale commitment to developing interagency relationships, and how this should be a major priority moving forward. 

"It’s not about going out and managing forests, silvicultural prescription or even forest management," Jon said in our conversation. "It’s become all about people management, almost a social science. I think people are starting to realize that. It’s a softer approach but it’s very real.”

This conversation and the rest of our Fire in the Southwest series is supported by the Southwest Fire Science Consortium, as well as the Arizona Wildfire Initiative. We're so grateful for their support!

Time stamps: 

06:23 - Jon's Background and Navajo Upbringing 

09:42 - Northern Arizona University And Its Programs 

11:51 - Native American Forest And Rangeland Management Program 

13:00 - San Carlos Apache Tribe

14:12 - Western Land Management Agencies Working With Tribes 

15:38 - Opportunities And Funding Becoming Available To Bolster Tribal Management

18:45 - Fire History and Research in the Piñon Juniper Ecosystems of the Southwest

20:38 - Indigenous Fire History In Piñon Juniper Ecosystems 

22:41 - Culturally Informed Management In Higher Elevation Forests 

25:56 - Increasing Acknowledgement Of Cultural Burning 

26:33 - Wildland Fire Management And Mitigation Report Directives for Indigenous Burning

28:10 - San Carlos Apache Tribe—Wildfire Crisis Strategy Funding Leading to Tribal Management Success Story

29:34 - Collaborative Efforts Require Long-Term Commitments and Relationship Building

33:50 - Tribal Management Is Inherently Collaborative 

34:20 - Jon's Career Wins 

37:32 - End 

This episode with Tonto National Forest fire ecologist Mary Lata dives into the fire regimes of the Southwest, how they're changing by the year, how invasive grasses are influencing those changes, and particularly how she's beginning to see more fire in the Sonoran Desert, where fire was not historically common. We also spoke about her work within the Four Forest Restoration Project, which aims to restore and protect the significant ponderosa pine forests within the Apache-Sitgreaves, Coconino, Kaibab and Tonto national forests. 

Mary was preparing for a public meeting the day of our conversation and had a few great slides that she showed me during our conversation, so I've uploaded the full video of our conversation to Youtube for folks who would like some more context for the topics we discussed in the podcast. 

This episode and our entire series on Fire in the Southwest was made possible with support from The Southwest Fire Science Consortium  and the Arizona Wildfire Initiative.

Timstamps: 

01:11 - Introduction

05:42 - Mary's Background and Career

10:04 - Four Forest Restoration Initiative

13:05 - Growing up Near Badlands National Park

15:33 - Different Ecosystems and Fire Regimes of the Southwest

17:19 - The Sonoran Desert

19:39 - Witnessing Desert Conversion Over Time

20:14 - Should Human-Caused Ignitions Be Part Of A Fire Regime?

22:05 - Lightning Caused Fires Versus Human Caused Fire

23:52 - Mary's Love of Nebraska

27:01 - Grasslands In The Great Plains

30:36 - Current Restoration Work and Climate Change Impacts on Southwest Fire Regimes

34:11 - What is Assisted Migration and Can It Help The Southwest?

38:04 - The Changing Role Of Disturbance In Grassland Systems

39:24 - Grassification of the Sonoran Desert. 

45:13 - Outro

In this episode, which is serving as an introduction to the series, we spoke with Mary Stuever, who is the Cimarron District Forester for New Mexico Forestry Division. Mary has a breadth of experience across disciplines in the fire world, which is well-reflected in our conversation. She's worked in suppression, prevention, fire ecology, community education, post-fire support and public information, among other roles in her long career in fire. As such, we touched on everything from her background in suppression (and subsequent health problems from smoke exposure) to her time providing post-fire community support for the folks in Mora, NM, which was devastated by the 2022 Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak Fire. Mora was not only impacted by the fire itself, but also by subsequent flooding and debris flows that destroyed wells, choked out acequias (critical agricultural waterways) and destroyed untold homes, properties and livelihoods. 

Mary reflected on the situation she found herself in in such a devastating post-fire environment, including what was needed and opportunities she saw for helping other communities prepare for similar situations. She also gave us a quick Southwest Fire Ecology 101 lesson, and was all around a great guest to chat about the huge diversity of wildfire issues facing the Southwest right now. Most of the topics we spoke to will be elaborated on in greater detail in upcoming episodes, so we hope you'll stick around and listen in as we release more episodes of this series over the next six weeks. 

For more information on post-fire impacts in Mora, check out some of the fantastic reporting  Patrick Lohmann of Source NM did both during and after the fire.

For more information about our sponsor for this series, the Southwest Fire Science Consortium, check out their website, which is chock-full of resources related to Southwest fire ecology, research, management and communications. 

You can learn more about the Arizona Wildfire Initiative and their great work in community outreach, science communications and fire education on their website. 

Timestamps: 

08:55 - Role Of Fire In The Landscape

10:10 - Health Issues in Wildland Firefighting

12:13 - Basing Operational Decisions On Smoke Exposure

14:18 - Fire Ecology of the Southwest 101

23:22 - Intersecting Cultures And Fire Management in the Southwest

25:34 - Ecosystem-Specific Challenges and Different Tactics For Different Landscapes

27:51 - Mary's Experience Providing Post-Fire Support In Mora, NM (Following Calf Canyon/Hermits Peak)

36:29 - Post-Fire Recommendations For The Southwest

40:49 - Utilizing Art And Theater For Fire Education

44:03 - Bringing Community Members In As Partners

Dr. Emily Fairfax and Dr. Sophie Gilbert joined us to talk about everything from nature-based climate solutions to why we should learn to better coexist with beavers to that one time Idaho Fish and Game decided to try parachuting beavers into mountain meadows in Idaho. Rest assured there were also a lot of beaver puns.

Beaver's role in building fire resilience is probably one of the most requested episode topics we've had since starting the podcast in 2020. We got a pretty solid Beavers and Fire 101, but also had the chance to dig in deeper to talk about areas where beavers have made an impact in protecting structures during wildfires, how Sophie's work at Vibrant Planet is helping to prioritize areas where beavers and nature-based interventions (like beaver dam analogs) could make the biggest difference, as well as what both of their visions are for an idyllic beaver-friendly and more fire-resilient world. Also, be sure to stick around to the end of the episode where we speak about the concept of a "Stewardship Economy," or creating a world that is more supportive of community building and stewardship/restoration work that supports both resilience and community—in other words, the things we really need not only in the wildfire space but also in the broader climate/conservation etc spaces. 

Here are links to a few of the things mentioned throughout the episode: 

Beaver, Bison, Horse Book—The Traditional Knowledge and Ecology of the Northern Great Plains

Emily Fairfax's website/research. 

A fantastic stop-motion rendering of how beaver's change the landscape and build fire resilience (created by Emily!)

Vibrant Planet's Land Tender— a multi-faceted planning and monitoring platform for treatment area prioritization, risk mapping and decision making. 

"Leave It To Beavers," Patagonia's Cleanest Line Blog—Amanda's story about Trout Unlimited and Northwest Youth Corps crews building BDA's in the John Day River watershed.  

Story one (timestamp: 6:32) centers on the experiences of volunteer wildland firefighters on the Blackfeet (Niitsitapi) Reservation, as well as on the history of Indigenous burning on Blackfeet Nation ancestral lands. Created by: Trysten Hannon, Callie Wood and Chloe Croff. 

Story two (12:29) is a profile of a student's grandfather, who spoke about his experiences as a Chief Mountain hotshot back in the 70s and 80s. Created by: Amanda Andersen-Marxer and Ariel McFadyean. 

Episode three (16:34) focuses on the experiences of a few modern day members of the Chief Mountain Hotshots. Created by: Sierra Freedenburg and Danaia Moreno. 

Story four (19:49) highlights how wildfires impact wildlife, and provided an opportunity for students to speak with employees at their reservation's fish and wildlife office. Created by: Rihanna ManyWhiteHorses, Shy'lee Kittson and Bailey Gobert. 

Finally, story five (24:11) shows the unexpected impacts of having an incident command post pop up at your high school during a major wildfire in your area. Created by: Lily Crawford, Reese Briney and Shiloh Williams. 

We owe a huge thank you to the students and teachers who worked hard to make this episode possible, as well as to Mary Auld of the Montana Media Lab, who pitched and coordinated this initiative. We'd also like to thank the instructors for this project—Kathleen Shannon, Elinor Smith and JoVonne Wagner. 

This episode was made possible with support from the American Wildfire Experience and Mystery Ranch Backpacks. 

For updates on the American Wildfire Experience's 2024 Digital Storytelling Micro Grants Program, follow them on Instagram at @wildfire.experience and @thesmokeygeneration. 

We even did some deep diving into the oil and gas industry's role in increasingly catastrophic fire seasons, about climate change and how we keep having unprecedented fire seasons—but our processes and protocols aren't catching up with how extreme conditions and fire behavior have become in some cases. 

We also highly recommend  Fire Weather for those who haven't read it yet. You can pick it up from my favorite local bookstore, Village Books, here. 

Timestamps: 

06:00 - Introduction

08:14 - 2016's Alberta Fire Warning of the Future

09:42 - John's Thoughts on the 2023 Fire Season

12:28 - The Shifting Baseline for Fire Fighting Efforts

16:55 - Weather Conditions Affect How Fire Behaves

19:26 - People's Humanity Makes Evacuation Efforts Possible

23:40 - Humanizing the Evacuation Process

25:01 - Interviewing Evacuees

28:18 - This Evacuation Changed Everyone's Lives Forever

29:34 - The Oil and Gas Industry Connection to Wildfire

31:56 - Humans are a Fire Species

35:32 - Society's Wealth Comes From Fire

37:38 - Gaps in Conversation Surrounding Wildfires

40:11 - We Have to Rethink Our Relationship With Fire

42:39 - John's Lessons Learned

44:12 - Houses Are Made From Petroleum Products

46:49 - Firefighting 90s Style Will Not Help Us

48:40 - No Precedent for Recent Fire Events

51:40 - This Requires a Nuanced Conversation

53:45 - Outro

Here's her NASA bio, which explains her background better than we ever possibly could: Dr. McCarty has more than 15 years’ experience in applications of Earth observations and geospatial and data science to accurately quantify wildland and human-caused fire management and emissions, agriculture and food security, climate change impacts and adaptation, and land-cover/land-use change. 

Quick note that this episode was recorded in August 2023, so there are a few things we spoke about that are maybe not exactly timely right now, but are nonetheless relevant to the ongoing conversation about wildfire resilience (for example, the tragedy in Lahaina and the, at that time, still ongoing fire season in Canada).

To learn more about Dr. McCarty's background and research, check out her full NASA bio page. 

07:42 - Wildfire and Different Plant Species

09:05 - What Satellites Can and Cannot Tell Us

10:49 - The Lahaina Tragedy—Response, Fire/Management History on Maui

13:41 - Preparing To Deal With Fire and Building Resilience At Scale

17:06 - Invest In Being Good Neighbors

19:22 - Landscaping Choices as They Relate To Wildfire

20:43 - How We Can Thrive With Fire

22:41 - Why We Need More Prescribed Fire

24:49 - The Energy Grid As A Fire Risk

25:44 - New Emergency Notification System/Emergency Management Perspectives

27:59 - Agency Scientists Are Underutilized

30:12 - Emergency Management/Response and How It Can Save Lives

31:45 - Fire: Everybody's Problem, Everybody's Solution

33:08 - Fire Regimes in Boreal Forests

36:33 - Extreme Fire Year In Canada

38:28 -The Realities of Wildfire Evacuations

40:25 - The Arctic Council

44:43 - Closing

As we wrap up this year of Life with Fire, we want to thank Mystery Ranch Backpacks for the ongoing support not only of this podcast, but of storytelling in the wildland fire space more generally. For one stellar example, we cannot recommend their series on Sasha Berleman ("The Fire Poppy") enough. Go check it out if you're looking for something to do in these wierd days between Christmas and New Years. 

Junior is a young wildland firefighter who shared his experiences of working in fire in his third season on a BLM handcrew out of eastern Oregon. In this episode, he spoke to some of his challenges and triumphs in pursuing wildland firefighting, and spoke especially to the role his father had in inspiring him to pursue this job. 

We appreciate both AWE's and Mystery Ranch's commitment to sharing the experiences of those working on the fireline, especially those from communities often underrepresented in content/media around wildland fire. This episode is the first of two that center the operational experiences of folks whose perspectives are not well represented in wildfire media. 

Need a gift for the outdoorsperson in your life? For mountain bikers, day hikers, travelers and festival lovers, I recommend the MR Hip Monkey.  It's almost too spacious—I always end up packing way more in it than I end up needing, but you never know when you're gonna need an extra layer or that second bag of gummy bears. 

For folks who love a good overnight ski trip, I can't recommend the Gallatin Peak 40 Liter pack enough. I've used this pack for everything from hut trips in the winter to traveling through Europe this fall to backpacking to alpine lakes in the summer. For those who don't have a ton of space to have a bag for every activity in their life, the Gallatin Peak checks multiple boxes and is a wonderfully multipurpose pack that can keep your life simple. Who needs four bags when you really just need this one!?

New Fire Networks Website!!

Marek has quite a background of working in good fire implementation and policy, and recently represented 501 c3 organizations with expertise in forest management and environmental conservation on the Wildfire Commission which released its report and recommendations back in September.

In his role with the Nature Conservancy, Marek works to, quite simply, bring fire to the people while leading an organization that prioritizes our collective relationship with fire. All of TNC's programming through the Fire Networks is focused on developing more avenues for people to connect with fire, whether by exchanging knowledge/training,  sharing resources or empowering individuals and communities to build resilience to or change their relationships with fire.

We covered some ground with this one—not only about his role in the Wildfire Commission, but also his work with the Fire Networks, Amanda's experience at her first TREX back in October, and the future of the Fire Networks. This was such a fun conversation that was a long time coming, and we were left feeling like we could have talked to Marek for much, much longer than we did! Maybe a part two is in order....

Don't forget to check out the Fire Networks' new website!

You can also learn more about the new partnership between the Nature Conservancy and the Forest Service here. 

Looking for Christmas gifts for the outdoorsperson/backpacker/firefighter/hunter/skier in your life? Well boy howdy you should probably check out Mystery Ranch's selection of packs, made for every hobby you could possibly need a pack for.

I'm a huge fan of Mystery Ranch packs and am an especially big fan of their Saddle Peak ski pack and their Hip Monkey pack, which is a glorified fanny pack that is durable as hell and has SO MUCH SPACE. I use it for long days on my mountain bike, and also recently used it basically as a purse during a three-week trip backpacking around Italy. 

Timestamps:

03:55 - Episode Introduction

05:57 - Process For The Wildfire Commission

08:02 - Themes In Marek's Work

09:29 - Work Groups Within The Commission 

10:02 - Marek's Current Action Items

10:52 - Collaborative Approach To Recommendations 

12:11 - An All-Society Approach

13:02 - Multi-Year Funding

13:58 - Community Wildfire Defense Grants

15:21 - Wildfire Adaptation PODs

17:13 - Focus On What Is In Reach

18:14 - Community Level Practitioners

19:00 - The Fire Networks Partnership

21:24 - The Indigenous Peoples Burning Network

22:37 - Proactive Community Building

23:47 - Amanda's Experience On TREX

24:56 - The PIO Position

25:48 - Current Happenings At Nature Conservancy

27:21 - Indigenous TREX Experiences

28:41 - Women In Prescribed Fire Training

30:09 - How To Get Involved

31:04 - Ongoing Efforts

We're hoping to release a few more episodes about the commission report, which will focus on other recommendations and themes—including community resilience/adaptation, Indigenous burning and scaling up projects that reduce wildfire risk. Stay tuned!

Kelly is an outspoke advocate for wildland firefighters through her work at Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, which you should definitely check out if you haven't already. 

This episode is brought to you by Mystery Ranch, which makes the best fire pack in the business--we will die on this hill! If you're looking for a fire pack (or a backpacking pack, or a briefcase, or a hunting pack, or a...well you get it), then Mystery Ranch is the place to go. You'll probably never have to buy a pack again!

In this episode, we spoke with Dr. Melinda Adams of the N’dee San Carlos Apache Tribe about translating Indigenous knowledge into Indigenous-led action—which means giving Indigenous practitioners the "space, opportunity and action" to see their knowledge systems play out on the landscape. We spoke about a whole lot more than that, though; we heard about Dr. Adams' PhD work at UC-Davis, about her new assistant professor position at the University of Kansas, about "rematriating" fire (bringing  women back into cultural fire decision making) and generally bringing more humility into the use of fire. We also spoke at length about her recent paper titled "Solastalgia to Soliphilia: Cultural Fire, Climate Change, and Indigenous Healing," which she co-authored with Erica Tom and Chairman Ron Goode of the North Fork Mono Tribe (who coined the term "Traditional Ecological Practices").

A bit more about Melinda: As a fire scholar, Dr. Adams concentrates on encouraging public participation in prescribed and controlled burns, getting more people fire certified, and placing more Indigenous-led cultural fire to the ground with allies, agencies, and Tribal members— “decolonizing fire” as she describes. She holds a Bachelor of Science from Haskell Indian Nations University (one of thirty-seven tribal colleges located across the United States), her Master of Science from Purdue University, and PhD from the University of California, Davis. Her research focuses on the intersection of ecology, environmental science, environmental policy and Native American studies; through her research and work, she envisions a future where cultural fire is used as a climate adaptation strategy while mitigating the frequency and intensity of catastrophic wildfire.

This is an important episode for those interested in Indigenous knowledge, understanding and practice of land stewardship—including the use of fire—but is absolutely essential for anyone who works in an agency or organization that emphasizes the importance of TEK, and especially for those who recognize a need for a different and more humble approach to fire and active stewardship.  

Beyond that, if you're looking for an antidote to your climate grief, look no further than this conversation with Melinda. Her energy for the work is incredible, and is bolstered by countless other Indigenous practitioners and allies who envision a more sustainable, Indigenous-led, community-based future of land stewardship and fire use. 

Timestamps: 

07:17 - Introduction

09:42 - Fire in Tribe's Cultural Stories

10:35 - Soliphilia

12:32 - California and Tribal Recognition

15:19 - Healing Powers of Cultural Fire

17:34 - State Agencies Invited to Cultural Fire Demos

18:37 - Wildfires and A Lack of Relationship with the Land

21:20 - Community Education

23:30 - Generational Protocol and Practices

24:46 - Traditional Ecological Practices

27:25 - Melinda's Teaching and Her Students' Focus

31:50 - The Humble Fire Approach

34:12 - Learn Homeland History Where You Burn

36:15 - Caring for the Place You Live

38:28 - Collaboration with Different Tribes

39:31 - Storytelling to Translate Scientific Findings

44:02 - Final Thoughts from Melinda

The ways we talk about wildfire are often highly localized—and dependent on a number of factors like community values, history and available resources. However, the things that make for successful risk communication are largely universal, with mutual respect being chief among the elements of successful communication. This is a primary point of Isabeau's: that when we are talking to community members about wildfire or other climate risks, embracing a two-way communication approach (rather than top-down, as she calls it) is essential. In other words, ensuring that you're actually listening to the community you're attempting to communicate with.

Isabeau is also a current member of PyroLife, which is a PhD training program that supports students across the globe to pursue cross-disciplinary, wildfire-focused research projects. She recently published a paper called "A toolkit for fostering co-creation and participative community engagement with vulnerable communities at risk," where she expands on many of the topics we cover in this episode—we'd highly recommend giving it a read. 

If you're interested in learning more about our open call for pitches, check out our blog post about it!

If you'd like to help us meet our objective to support Black, Indigenous, Hispanic and other creators from communities that have been disproportionately impacted by wildfires, please check out our Patreon.

Timestamps: 

05:36 - Introduction

06:51 - Interest in Wildfires

09:05 - Community Collaboration Over Expert Dictation

10:36 - Community Experience as Starting Point

11:35 - Limitations of Wildfire Communication

15:07 - Spain vs. US Wildfire Management and Communications

17:43 - Communication as Top Priority

18:23 - Leveraging Social Media Platforms

19:38 - Tips for the Upcoming Wildfire Season

23:09 - Future of Wildfire Prevention Gaps

24:50 - Complexity of Wildfire Management

Produced by Morgan McRae

Lucas and Amanda spoke about expanding capacity for (and acceptance of) local burning in MARS' backyard—primarily through private lands burning and engaging community members through contractual opportunities and the Stewardship Crew itself. They also spoke about the Washington State Certified Burn Manager Program, engaging recreationists in the act of fuel reduction and land stewardship and a number of other topics, as well as what the stewardship crew has been up to this spring and summer. 

Speaking of expanding capacity for prescribed burning in Washington State—have you heard about the two TREX events taking place in Washington this fall? The Selkirk and Gorge TREX events are accepting applications for a few more days (July 17th is the deadline), so if you're available and interested, be sure to apply asap!

05:52 - MARS' Approach to Non-Intimidating Fires

08:18 - Role Model Programs for MARS' Startup

10:14 - Private Landowners Burning with Crews

13:14 - Education in the MARS Program

16:09 - Washington State's Prescribed Burn Manager Course

19:29 - Engaging Rural Communities in Fire Mitigation

21:50 - Fostering Collaboration Among Property Owners

23:08 - Lucas' Background Story

25:26 - Spring Job Opportunities at MARS

27:01 - Current Status of Wildfire Proactivity

Produced by Morgan McRae

After asking himself that question for years, today's guest Luke Mayfield finally got his answer in 2019, when he left his job as a hotshot captain to see what life outside of operational fire was all about. He now works as the fire program director at Mystery Ranch Backpacks, and is still very much involved the fire community—both through his policy work at Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and as an emergency fill-in for hotshot crews for the last four summers. He's also spent some time this spring talking to hotshot crews about mental health and general wellness during the fire season, which are topics that he's well-versed in after 18 years in fire.

This episode isn't just for the firefighters out there, though. It's increasingly important that folks outside of the fire community better understand the challenges firefighters are facing, and take advantage of advocacy opportunities at the state and federal level. Much of those opportunities for advocacy, in fact, are rooted in Luke's work with Grassroots Wildland Firefighters.

Luke was a founding member of Grassroots back in 2019 after recognizing a need for more lobbying power/legislative presence on the part of the wildland fire community, which had historically been left out of the conversation at the policy level and, thus, often in the media and greater public consciousness. If you're looking for a way to support the wildland firefighters in your life or community, supporting the work of Grassroots is a great place to start.

Huge thanks to Luke for coming on the show, and an equally huge thanks to Mystery Ranch Backpacks for supporting Life with Fire over the years. We have a fancy new affiliate link program with MR and thought we'd highlight their man purse (aka Murse), which is like the Bugatti of man-purses: https://bit.ly/42CyyN6 

TW:  Mental health challenges and suicidal ideation are discussed briefly in this episode. 

Our conversation ran the gamut from the forest resilience measures she's taken while in office, to the All Hands All Lands approach to fuels reduction, to her vision for a more fire-adapted Washington. Life with Fire is based in Bellingham, WA—an admittedly wet place to host a wildfire podcast—so we also spoke a bit about the changing conditions in the west Cascades and how her office is hoping to bring more wildfire awareness to the westside. 

You can support the Life with Fire Patreon if you dig what we're doing, or maybe write us a review or follow us on social media (@lifewithfirepod). 

If you're looking for a new pack (especially a fire pack!), be sure to go check out Mystery Ranch's wide range of fantastic packs for any activity you partake in: https://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tool_type=cl&merchant_id=dd2bb191-351c-479c-9877-7efa128a6335&website_id=d8132395-0578-4694-9ba8-65dc5a6ef74a&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mysteryranch.com%2F

Emily filled us in on the fire ecology and history of the pine barrens, where she spent  as a kid growing up in NJ. Emily wrote her master's thesis at Yale on the pine barrens of the northeast (which exist all over the northeast and midwest—not just NJ) and talked through some of the common misconceptions of Northeast wildfires while providing a good bit of context for all those wild videos we're seeing on social media this week. 

To learn more about the fire history of the pine barrens, check out this piece that Emily penned while at Yale: https://www.firesciencenorthatlantic.org/post/pine-barrens-of-the-northeastern-u-s-emily-dohlansky-2018

Looking for a new pack? Check out Mystery Ranch's stellar selection and let them know we sent you by using this link! https://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=pl&ti=4703&pw=348921&mi=13570&pt=3&pri=603  

Learn more about Natasha and the work she is doing at the Earth Lab: https://earthlab.colorado.edu/our-team/natasha-stavros

Contribute to the work we're doing here at Life with Fire by becoming a patron!  

Need a pack? Our sponsor Mystery Ranch probably has something for ya, whether you're looking for a backpacking setup for the summer or new fire packs for your crew. Check out their selection here: https://bit.ly/410LZ85

Learn more about the Oregon Prescribed Fire Council: https://www.oregonrxfire.org/

This episode is sponsored by Mystery Ranch Backpacks. Whether you need the toughest load-bearing backpack on the market or a bag for your laptop, Mystery Ranch has what you're looking for. Check out their fire packs (specifically their women's fire packs!) here: https://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=pl&ti=4703&pw=348921&mi=13570&pt=3&pri=603

Naturally, that means she has a lot of fantastic perspective on what she has gleaned from each job, as well as the lessons she's brought from the suppression world to her work as a prescribed fire advocate and current chair of the Oregon Prescribed Fire Council.

This conversation was recorded back in September in Eugene, Oregon, as fire crews prepped to burn a unit nearby. This conversation is also broken up into two parts—part two will be released next week. 

Chris is the regional fire specialist for the Southwest Oregon region of Oregon State's Fire Extension, and had some great insights on community and individual fire resilience, OSU's fire extension programming and, finally, how we can better communicate with communities about both prescribed and managed fire. We chatted next to an old burn unit above Ashland, Oregon, in a popular recreation area—this being the case, the audio in this episode has a little more character than normal, thanks to wind, birds and mountain bikers. We also had a short visit from a local hiker, who shared some of his own thoughts on fire use in the area, smoke impacts of prescribed fire units and his perceptions of wildfire risk in Ashland. It was a fun side conversation and a great example of how engaged community members are in what's happening on the land in their backyards. 

To learn more about the OSU Fire Extension and stay up to date on its workshops, webinars and other programming, check out its website or Twitter.

To support Life with Fire, check out our Patreon. 

To learn more about Firesmart Canada, check out their website. 

Click here to donate to our Patreon—for a limited time, those who donate at the $20 level this month will receive a Life with Fire Calendar!

We've spoken to a few guests who have highlighted the importance of Indigenous authority in land management in the past, but today we've got a whole episode on how that authority can actually be achieved at the community level and how these practices are informed by traditional Indigenous values and land management objectives. While at the IAWF conference in Alberta last week, we had the opportunity to speak with Francis Johnson, who is the Forest Manager for Alkali Resource Management LLC—a First-Nations-owned land management company that manages a community forest in Alkali Lake, British Columbia. Francis, who is a member of the Secwepemc (Shuswap) First Nations Community, gave us some wonderful insights into how the oral histories of his band continue to inform land management activities on the community forest. We also spoke about the band's collaborations with agencies like the BC Wildfire Service, and the reconciliations that needed to happen to make those relationships both possible and productive.

To learn more about the work that Francis and Alkalive Resource Management do, check out the company's website: http://www.armltd.org/

To learn more about the oral histories and land management objectives of the Secwepemc Nation, check out this presentation from Francis that was featured by the BC Community Forest Association: https://bccfa.ca/cfa-wildfire-workshop-2019-presentation-francis-johnson/

Jude told us about some of his upcoming research, which he's hoping will utilize Strava data to determine where people continue to recreate in the aftermath of wildfires, in addition to lots of other cool stuff he has in the works. We also explored the proliferation of Lyme disease as a result of fire exclusion, a problem that is most pronounced in the Northeast, and how that's inordinately impacting the outdoor community in certain regions.  

Learn more about Jude's breadth of wildfire and economics research here. 

You can learn more our sponsor, Protect our Winters, and their Stoke the Vote campaign—which encourages the outdoor community to do their research, register to vote and make their voices heard ahead of this fall's midterms. Learn more about the campaign and POW's other work here. 

To support Life with Fire, follow us on Instagram and  Twitter; you can also support us/help pay the bills (and our host's burgeoning addiction to iced lattes) by donating to our Patreon. 

Song featured in POW ad: The Times They Are A Changin' by Goth Babe

To see more of what Andrew's doing, give him and the Snow Lab a follow on Twitter. 

Learn more about Protect our Winters and their Stoke the Vote campaign at their website. 

Support Life with Fire by donating to our Patreon! We'll send you some swag for your troubles, and really appreciate the support. 

Music featured in POW Ad: The Times They Are A Changin' by Goth Babe. 

To see what Dillon's been up to, check out his website as well as a recent film he worked on about the impacts of drought, beetle kill and wildfire on trails in southwest Colorado. 

To learn more about Protect our Winters, the sponsor of our wildfire and recreation series, and their Stoke the Vote campaign, check out their website. 

Music featured in the POW ad by Goth Babe. 

To support Life with Fire, check out our Patreon.

Protect our Winters is a climate advocacy organization that engages the outdoor community in on-the-ground and legislative climate action. We encourage you to check out their website, where you can pledge to vote in the upcoming midterm elections, learn more about what they do as well as how to support them. 

You can learn more about the Outdoor Alliance here.

If you're feeling extra benevolent today, consider becoming a Patron and donating to the Life with Fire Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

Music from Goth Babe. 

During his undergrad, Harrison scored a fellowship that allowed him to travel the world to explore fire management practices in places like South Africa, Greece and Australia, among others. The result of that work (which can be found here) provided a profound framework for his continued work in academia, which has largely been funded by his work as a wildland firefighter through the summers. 

Harrison encourages firefighters to lean in to the unique experiences they've had if they leave fire, especially as so many agencies, organizations and businesses are trying to find solutions in the wildfire space. We also spoke about his fellowship experiences, as well as what he is researching as a grad student at UC Berkeley, working primarily in the wildland urban interface realm. 

A few things that Harrison mentioned that we wanted to link to: 

The Mountain Legacy Project

The Pau Costa Foundation

As always, we owe a massive thanks to MYSTERY RANCH for sponsoring this episode of Life with Fire, as well as a number of previous episodes. MYSTERY RANCH is proud to be the first pack company to provide women’s specific harnessing in their HOTSHOT Line as well as their HOT SPEED pack in our engine/IA category. To see their entire line of fire packs—including their women's packs and packs for international firefighters who don't use fire shelters—check out their website here. 

Finally, if you'd like to support Life with Fire with a monthly donation, please check out our Patreon for tier options—Patrons who donate at the $7 tier and above will get some Life with Fire and Mystery Ranch swag! 

Thankfully, our guest this week—Daniel Godwin of the Ember Alliance—agreed to guide us on this journey into all the behind-the-scenes liability and insurance business that needs to happen before any driptorches are lit. Daniel—who is the director of programs and partnerships at the Ember Alliance in Colorado—brings an obvious passion and long-honed wit to how he talks about wildfire, and our conversation covered the gamut from how these policies affect our current fire reality, why they're impacting prescribed fire initiatives and what is being done to make it better.

If you're more the reading type, Daniel just published a piece over on the Ember Alliance's blog about this same topic. You can check it out here. 

Today's guest Amy Cardinal Christianson, a Métis woman and Fire Social Scientist for the Canadian Forest Service, addressed these questions (and so, so many others) for us in today's episode. On top of advocating for greater authority for First Nation communities over their ancestral lands, Amy also has an extensive background in researching the connection between First Nation communities and wildfire. Her most recent research centers heavily on wildfire evacuations in First Nations communities in Canada; various overlapping factors (like remote locations and a lack of emergency response infrastructure) often result in disproportionate wildfire impacts to First Nations communities.

We owe a huge thank you to Amy for coming on the show to share her perspective; it was a privilege to learn about the work she's involved in, as well as how First Nations communities continue to reestablish control over their homelands—while touching on some of the roadblocks she's experienced along the way. To hear more from Amy, you can check out her absolutely stellar podcast, "Good Fire," here: https://yourforestpodcast.com/good-fire-podcast

Finally, this episode is sponsored by Mystery Ranch Backpacks, which recently came out with women's-specific sizing on their fire packs (!!!) which we are inordinately excited about. Whether you need something that can keep up on day after day of digging line or a bomber duffel bag for weekend trips, you can rest assured that Mystery Ranch packs come ready to be used hard and put away wet, no matter what. You can dig around on their website here: https://www.mysteryranch.com/womens-hotshot-tl-wildland-fire-pack

This episode is sponsored by #ForestProud—a community of land stewards focused on keeping forests as forests while fighting for forest climate solutions in the era of climate change. They serve to "connect the dots" between organizations, initiatives, those interested in joining the forest sector and those already involved. To check out some of their great content, follow them on Instagram and Twitter at @forestproud. To become a member, learn more about them or donate, check out their website: https://forestproud.org/. 

But Bobbie's story doesn't start and end with firefighting. She's also a trans woman, and has experienced the fire world as both a man and woman, having transitioned to female between fire seasons in the late 1980s. This gives Bobbie an exceedingly rare perspective on gender dynamics on the fireline—perspectives that she now shares widely through her podcast, Bobbie on Fire, as well as her new book, Both Sides of the Fireline, which is available for pre-order and will be released this fall. Through it all, Bobbie maintains an incredible ability to tell stories that serve not only as valuable lessons learned, but often as funny and relatable anecdotes for anyone who has worked in fire—and especially for those who are underrepresented in the fire space. 

To hear more of Bobbie's stories, check out her podcast and website. 

To pre-order Bobbie's book, find it on Barnes and Noble  or through our host's favorite local bookstore, Village Books in Fairhaven, WA. 

For more information on our newest sponsor, #ForestProud, check out their website. 

To support Life with Fire, check out our Patreon. 

Mystery Ranch's new women's-specific fire packs: https://www.mysteryranch.com/Packs/Fire/New

Life with Fire Patreon: www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

Stay tuned for the second half of our conversation with Jane, which will be published later next week. 

We also want to give a big shout out to our new sponsor, Mystery Ranch Backpacks. To browse their seemingly endless catalog of backpacks for any activity you can think of, check out their website: www.mysteryranch.com

To see Mystery Ranch's new women-specific fire packs (!!), check out https://www.mysteryranch.com/Packs/Fire/New.  

To donate to Life with Fire, check out our Patreon—patrons who donate at the $15 level and up will recieve a Mystery Ranch swag pack, while those who donate at $20 and up will get a Life with Fire calendar: www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

This episode is the first in our series on women in wildfire, which will run until early May. 

Celilo in Vogue Magazine: https://www.vogue.com/slideshow/victorias-secret-love-cloud-launch-celilo-miles-interview

Life with Fire Patreon: www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

Life with Fire website: www.lifewithfirepodcast.com

Life with Fire email: lifewithfirepod@gmail.com

More information on the Mt. Adams Resource Stewards: https://mtadamsstewards.org/

Deer Humans Podcast Link: https://player.fm/series/deer-humans

Life with Fire website: www.lifewithfirepodcast.com

Life with Fire Patreon: www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

Time stamps:

5:48 — Mt. Adams Resource Stewards background/creation; fuels program development

8:56 — Working forest creation and introduction of stewardship crew

15:00 — Is this type of organization scalable across other Western communities?

17:35 — Earning buy-in from resource-dependent communities; outreach insights in rural communities, hearing out detractors

20:14 — Original inspiration for starting the organization

22:09 — Funding sources.

24:20 — Building connections in resource-dependent areas

25:41 — Suggestions for other organizers interested in creating a community forest

Life with Fire Patreon: www.patreon.com/lifewithfire

Life with Fire Website: www.lifewithfirepodcast.com

Notes:

3:15—Wildfire liability/responsibility regimes

8:45—Air quality impacts on communities

12:30—Prescribed fire liabilities, California's "claims fund"

21:55—Sustainability of suppression workforce; retention and having a family; the engrained misogyny of wildland firefighter work-life balance

23:30—Could community fire stewards be the future of sustainable employment in the wildfire/prescribed fire spaces?

26:55—The desperate need to build a bigger, skilled workforce to meet our management objectives

Timestamps:
7:55 — Wildfire risk to utilities.
15:30 — Biden's plan to burn 50 million acres in 10 years.
21:35 — Limitations of Forest Service resources in achieving those acreage goals.
26:00 — Thinking radically about the future of fire policy.

As always, we appreciate you listening and sharing and engaging with Life with Fire. If you'd like to support us financially you can do so in a variety of ways on our website's "Donate" page: www.lifewithfirepod.com/donate. 

For more information about (or donate to) Zeke's project at the Lookout, check out their website: www.the-lookout.org.

To read a little bit about Sue's time on the Lassen Hotshots, check out this story by Life with Fire host Amanda Monthei from summer 2020: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/exploration-survival/first-women-hotshots-wildland-firefighters/

To support Life with Fire, check out our Patreon: www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

More information about the Grassroots Wildland Firefighter Coalition as well as how to help can be found on their website.

If you're digging these conversations, you can donate to Life with Fire through our  Patreon. 

To hear more from Zeke, check out Life with Fire Episode 14. More of his work with The Lookout can be found here: https://the-lookout.org/

The paper authored by Valochovic and Knapp and referenced throughout this episode can be found here: https://fireecology.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42408-021-00117-0

Knapp and Valochovic are both members of the California Fire Science Consortium. More information on this organization can be found here. 

To support Life with Fire podcast, consider donating to our Patreon, which can be found here: www.patreon.com/lifewithfirepod

Firefighters included in this episode: Ben McLane (hotshot), Coleman Wilson (handcrew member), Gabby Casper (rappeller), Eddie Klemencic (hotshot), Kat Sullivan (hotshot) and Livi Hughes (British Columbia Fire Service crewmember). 

As promised in the episode, here are a few resources for wildland firefighters who are struggling with mental health challenges this off-season:

1. Wildland Firefighter Foundation—https://wffoundation.org/resources/reference/. This organization provides emotional and financial support and assistance for wildland firefighters injured on the line, and also facilitates mental health support. The website above is a landing page for a variety of other mental health resources for firefighters.

2. Your crew! Call up your crewmembers from last summer and check in on them. It's nice to talk to people who know the business and who understand what you're going through on a more personal level.

3. Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute—https://www.wfgi.org/mental-health-resources. This organization covers mental health resources (including therapy and counseling!) at no cost to wildland firefighters.

4. Online therapy—lots of options, but https://www.betterhelp.com/ is a highly recommended (and decently affordable) one.

5. For military veterans: You local VA Center (not hospital) can provide mental health treatment. More info here: https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/index.asp?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=search-va&utm_content=help&utm_term=%2Bva%20%2Bmedical%20%2Bcenter&gclid=CjwKCAiAu8SABhAxEiwAsodSZB0WyjZJ0hF_ErGbqzG6rQfqtVCNih-LBcsXe2tGcYTOLTbIWdY2KBoCqs8QAvD_BwE