Liminal Living

164: Grand Theft Donkey: Palm Sunday Reflections

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 1 Apr 2026 10:00:00 +0000

Episode Notes: Summary of Arguments

1. Palm Sunday is a political confrontation, not a celebration. Tom establishes the historical and cultural context: Jerusalem at Passover swelled from 30,000 to upward of 500,000 people. Rome, aware of the uprising potential, flooded the city with military forces. On the same day Jesus processed in from the east on a donkey, Roman Governor Pontius Pilate rode in from the west on a war horse with full military escort — a deliberate display of imperial power. The crowd's response to Jesus was not festive; it was insurrectionary.

2. Every symbol in the passage is a declaration of war — or its subversion. The donkey, the cloaks, and the palm branches are not incidental details. Each one carries a loaded history. Riding a colt into the city was a messianic claim rooted in Zechariah 9:9 and the traditions of David and Solomon. The cloaks replicated the crowd's welcome of Jehu in 2 Kings 9, signaling a regime change. The palm branches were the national symbol of the Maccabean liberation, and "Hosanna" was the literal battle cry used to charge against the Syrians. The crowd was not worshipping — they were rallying.

3. Jesus seized the expectations of the people and then refused to fulfill them violently. He accepted the messianic symbols deliberately, but rode on a colt described in Hebrew as anah — poor, afflicted, oppressed. His kingship is subversive from the outset. He is not another Judas Maccabeus. He is not another Judas the Galilean. He is something the crowd had no category for: a Messiah who refuses to win through violence.

4. The neuroscience of the crowd explains the shift from "Hosanna" to "Crucify him." When political and religious symbols enter the picture, the brain's logic centers shut down and emotion centers light up. The crowd was not being fickle — they were being human. Their hopes were enormous, their suffering was real, and Jesus walked past all of it toward a cross. They felt profoundly betrayed. That betrayal is the hinge of Holy Week.

5. The pastoral challenge: give up faith in violence. The enduring message of Palm Sunday is that humans are tempted to believe one more act of force will finally set the world right. It never does. Seeds of violence grow more violence. Jesus entered as the king the world needed and refused to become the king the world wanted — and that distinction is everything. The episode closes with a call to lay down our own palm branches: the version of Jesus we've constructed to serve our preferred vision of power.

Key Takeaways

Palm Sunday is set against a backdrop of colonial oppression, military buildup, and a population at its breaking point — not a festive parade.
Pontius Pilate's military procession and Jesus's entry happened simultaneously from opposite sides of the city — a deliberate counter-narrative.
Jesus riding a colt was a deliberate, public claim to be the Davidic Messiah, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9.
The Hebrew word for "humble" (anah) in Zechariah means poor, afflicted, and oppressed — God's definition of leadership is inverted from the world's.
Spreading cloaks was not hospitality — it was a political act modeled on the crowning of Jehu in 2 Kings 9, a declaration that regime change had come.
Palm branches were the national symbol of Maccabean independence; waving them was like raising a liberation flag.
"Hosanna" was a war cry meaning God save us now — the prayer of colonized people at their breaking point, not a gentle hymn.
Neuroscience confirms what the crowd shows us: when political and religious symbols collide, logic shuts off and emotion takes over — in every age.
The crowd's turn from "Hosanna" to "Crucify him" was not arbitrary — it was the grief of profound betrayal by someone who carried all their hope.
Jesus entered as the king the world needed and refused to become the king the world wanted — and every demand that Jesus endorse our vision of power repeats the crowd's mistake.

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163: Tom Rundel: Power Has No God: The Raising of Lazarus

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 25 Mar 2026 10:00:00 +0000

Jesus is a wanted man. He’s been run out of Jerusalem twice, nearly stoned to death, and is hiding in the wilderness when word arrives: your friend Lazarus is dying. What he does next—and how long he waits before doing it—will raise more questions than it answers. In this message from John 11, Tom Rundel explores the theology of delay, the geography of exile, and the difference between the kind of love that shows up when it’s convenient and the kind that enters a tomb. Grounded in the Greek text, Black theology, liberation thought, and honest pastoral experience, this sermon asks: Where does God actually live? And who is supposed to do the unbinding?

Key Take Aways

God refuses the abstraction. The God of Israel knows proper names and local addresses. When the text moves from 'a certain man was ill' to naming Lazarus and his town and his family, it is making a theological claim: the God of Scripture sees specific people in specific places, not categories of suffering.
Bethany is not incidental—it is the gospel. The town where Jesus performs his greatest miracle is the town built to house people politely exiled from the seat of power. God doesn't anointed in Jerusalem's temple. God is anointed in the group home for the sick and the marginalized. This is not the consolation prize of the gospel. It is the gospel.
Phileo love has a ceiling. Tribal love—built on shared connection, affinity, and mutual benefit—withdraws when you become inconvenient, too loud in your grief, too different in your evolution. When Lazarus became sick and dependent and unable to reciprocate, Phileo couldn't hold him. It never can.
Agape is different in kind, not just degree. Agape love is not built on what you share with the other person. It is built on the character of the person who loves. It moves toward the other at personal cost. It transforms the identity of the one who receives it. According to philosopher John Vervecky, this is Christianity’s singular contribution to the evolution of human moral consciousness.
The delay is not a bug in the story. Jesus knew. Jesus loved. Jesus stayed. And Lazarus died anyway. The text doesn't resolve this—it sits inside it. The invitation is not to find a theological answer to the delay but to examine what kind of love we actually want: a controlling love that prevents suffering, or a humble love that enters grief and stands at the tomb.
'Jesus wept' is not a footnote. It is the theological center. Embodied compassion precedes resurrection. God does not manage the moment from a safe distance. God enters inside it. And when Jesus says 'I am the resurrection and the life,' the 'I am' is the divine name—not a future promise but a present-tense encounter.
We build our own Bethanys—communal and interior. Communities build systems that push the sick, the poor, the doubting, and the different to the margins and call it order. Individuals exile parts of themselves they fear won't be accepted. The story of Lazarus says: may it not be that way.
The miracle belongs to God. The unbinding belongs to us. Jesus raises Lazarus. Then he hands the work to the community: 'Unbind him and let him go.' The church is not the source of resurrection life. It is the community that removes the grave clothes—of injustice, exclusion, shame, and old systems of merit—from the people God has already made alive.
The kingdom doesn't arrive in halls of power. Every time Jesus escapes Jerusalem and lands somewhere else, the pattern is the same: the place of power cannot receive what love is doing. The kingdom rises from the margins—from Bethany’s humble streets, not Jerusalem’s religious machinery.
What looks like the space between death and resurrection is actually the condition for growth. The old framework has collapsed. The new one has not yet arrived. Most of our faith operates in that threshold. It is not an obstacle to growth. It is the condition of it.

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162: Tom Rundel: Jesus Performs and Unauthorized Miracle

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 18 Mar 2026 10:00:00 +0000

Episode Summary

Jesus heals a man born blind using mud and spit — a deliberate echo of Genesis 2 and a declaration that the sacred arrives through the physical, not despite it. But the miracle is almost beside the point. The real story is what happens next: a twenty-verse interrogation by the Pharisees who cannot allow this healing to mean what it means, because it would unravel the world they've built.

The disciples' first question — "Who sinned?" — reveals a theology of retribution that places the cause of suffering in the body of the sufferer rather than in the structures that produced it. Jesus dismantles the question entirely: Neither this man nor his parents sinned. With one word — neither — he breaks open the either/or logic that has defined this man's entire life.

We also examine what it means that the man's parents are too afraid to speak, that the formerly blind man ends up being the freest person in the room, and why Jesus' final words to the Pharisees are among the most quietly devastating in all of Scripture: "Since you say you can see, your sin remains."

Lent is the season that teaches us how to see — not just what to see. This episode is an invitation to ask: what are we most certain about, and could that certainty be the very thing obscuring our sight?

Key Themes

The theology of retribution and why the church must repent of it
Incarnation: why Jesus healed with mud, not just a word
The Pool of Siloam and its prophetic significance
Power, narrative control, and how systems respond to unauthorized transformation
Perceptual confirmation bias as a spiritual condition
The freedom of those who have nothing left to lose

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161: Tom Rundel: Where is God When the System Fails You?

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 11 Mar 2026 10:00:00 +0000

Follow the Drinking Gourd: A Map Encoded in Song Tom opens with his love of astronomy and the Big Dipper, tracing it to the African American folk song "Follow the Drinking Gourd" — a secret map taught to enslaved people escaping north on the Underground Railroad. The stars, the rivers, and the mysterious guide Peg Leg Joe become an extended metaphor for the kind of liberation the Woman at the Well is seeking.

Setting the Scene: Why Jesus "Had To" Go Through Samaria By the time Jesus heads north in John 4, he's already overturned the temple economy and rattled religious authorities. Tom unpacks why most Jewish travelers avoided Samaria entirely — doubling a three-day journey to seven — and why the text's insistence that Jesus had to go through Samaria signals something theologically deliberate, not logistically necessary.

700 Years of Animosity: The Jew-Samaritan Divide Tom traces the deep historical roots of Jewish-Samaritan hostility — from the fall of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BC, through Assyrian resettlement, the destruction of the Samaritan temple on Mount Gerizim, and the desecration of the Jerusalem temple — showing that Jesus was walking into centuries of compounded grievance and mutual contempt.

A Woman at Noon: Double Exile Jesus arrives at the well at midday and waits. Tom explains that women drew water in the morning — coming at noon meant this woman wasn't welcome at the communal gathering. She's already an outcast within an outcast community: doubly exiled, doubly marginalized.

Rereading the Five Husbands: Levirate Marriage and Courageous Faith Tom challenges the traditional "woman searching for love in all the wrong places" reading entirely. Through the lens of Levirate marriage law — in which a widow was passed to her late husband's brothers to produce an heir — he reframes her story as one of faithfully following every rule and finding the system failed her anyway. Drawing a parallel to Tamar in Genesis, Tom argues she isn't a cautionary tale about sin; she's asking the oldest theological question: Where is God when the system has failed you?

Worship in Spirit and Truth: Dismantling Geographic Holiness When the woman asks about the mountain debate — Gerizim or Jerusalem — Tom argues she isn't deflecting. She's asking whether there's any avenue left for someone barred from all the accepted paths to God. Jesus's answer — that God is worshiped in spirit and truth, not geography — is a revolutionary dismantling of every gatekeeping system organized around sacred buildings and in-group access.

"I AM": The Divine Name Spoken to the Most Marginalized Jesus speaks his most stunning self-disclosure — the divine name I AM from the burning bush — not to Nicodemus, not to the disciples, but to this woman at a well at noon in Samaria. Tom connects this to Moses's commissioning in the wilderness and shows how the same words now send her on an identical mission: go lead an exodus.

Photini: Light-Bearer and Spiritual Mother The Eastern Orthodox Church honors this woman with the name Photini — "light." The town that excluded her now listens to her. She has no son, yet she becomes the spiritual mother of an entire community. Tom closes by returning to the drinking gourd image: we are not the North Star, just the constellation that helps people find it.

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160: Tom Rundel: Pretense is the Enemy of the Spiritual Life

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 4 Mar 2026 11:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Tom Rundel explores the deeper meanings and contexts surrounding the famous biblical verse John 3:16, discussing its historical significance, the character of Nicodemus, and the spiritual journey of understanding faith. He emphasizes the importance of context in scripture, the role of doubt in faith, and the transformative practices of Lent as a means to deepen one's spiritual life.

takeaways

John 3:16 became famous through a man with a rainbow wig.
The context of scripture is crucial for understanding its meaning.
Nicodemus approached Jesus out of curiosity and a desire for truth.
Nighttime symbolizes a space for honest questioning in faith.
Doubt can drive deeper spiritual inquiry and understanding.
Spirituality involves seeing interconnected layers of reality.
The kingdom of God is within every human heart.
Lent invites us to explore our true selves without pretense.
Transformation requires letting go of old understandings.
Practices during Lent can help cultivate a deeper spiritual life.

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159: Tom Rundel: The Devil Wears Vestments

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 25 Feb 2026 11:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Tom Rundel explores the significance of Lent as a time for spiritual recalibration and intentional practices. He emphasizes the importance of understanding hunger versus appetite, the experience of mortality through hunger, and the temptations faced by Jesus. The discussion culminates in an invitation for personal reflection and growth during Lent, highlighting the power of love over the love of power.

takeaways

Lent serves as an annual recalibration of our habits and patterns.

Intentional practices during Lent can help cultivate virtues.

Understanding the difference between hunger and appetite is crucial.

Experiencing hunger connects us to our mortality and need for community.

The temptations of Jesus illustrate recurring human struggles with power and control.

Lent invites us to reflect on what we truly desire and need.

The power of love is greater than the love of power.

We are called to embrace our vulnerability and neediness.

Lent is a time to displace negative habits with positive practices.

Holistic growth during Lent can encompass physical, mental, and spiritual well-being.

Chapters

00:00 Lent: A Time for Recalibration

03:35 Intentional Practices for Lent

06:24 Understanding Hunger vs. Appetite

12:17 The Wilderness Experience

18:17 The Temptations of Jesus

30:08 The Power of Love Over Power

35:57 Invitation to Lent Practices

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158: Tom Rundel: God Will Not Be Managed, Only Met

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 18 Feb 2026 11:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Tom Rundel reflects on Black History Month, focusing on the inspiring story of Ruby Bridges and her courage during the Civil Rights Movement. He discusses the significance of Norman Rockwell's painting, 'The Problem We All Live With,' and how it encapsulates the struggles faced by Ruby as she integrated an all-white school. The conversation transitions into the themes of mountaintop moments, sacred separation, and the transfiguration of Jesus, emphasizing the importance of community, love, and the journey of transformation. Rundel encourages listeners to embrace their own moments of clarity and to practice resurrection in their daily lives.

takeaways

Tom Rundel reflects on Black History Month and personal growth.
Ruby Bridges' story exemplifies courage in the face of adversity.
Norman Rockwell's painting highlights racial tensions in America.
Mountaintop moments provide clarity and vision for life's challenges.
Sacred separation is different from escapism; it leads to transformation.
Community plays a crucial role in individual becoming.
Love is a powerful force that transcends arguments.
Transfiguration reveals our true identity and destiny.
Practicing resurrection is a continuous journey, not a one-time event.
We must trust the light we carry, especially in difficult times.

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157: Tom Rundel: Christian Nationalism Can't Survive Matthew 5

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 11 Feb 2026 11:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Tom Rundel explores the profound teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, emphasizing its counterintuitive nature and the challenges it presents to individuals across the Christian spectrum. He delves into the historical context of Rosa Parks and the Montgomery Bus Boycott, illustrating how acts of non-violence and dignity can challenge oppressive systems. The discussion further expands on the metaphor of being 'salt of the earth' and 'light of the world,' calling for a communal approach to justice and love that preserves life and reveals truth in society.

Takeaways

The Sermon on the Mount is challenging and counterintuitive.
Rosa Parks' actions sparked a significant movement for civil rights.
The Montgomery Bus Boycott demonstrated the power of non-violent resistance.
Salt symbolizes preservation and healing in a violent world.
Light represents justice and communal action that restores dignity.
Christian nationalism can distort the true message of the Gospel.
Repentance is a way to reclaim dignity from oppressive narratives.
Small acts of faithfulness can have a significant impact.
Communities should organize around justice and love.
Living out the teachings of Jesus requires courage and authenticity.

Chapters

The Challenge of the Sermon on the Mount

Historical Context and Rosa Parks

The Impact of the Montgomery Bus Boycott

Salt of the Earth: A Call to Action

Light of the World: Living Out Goodness

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156: Tom Rundel: The Light We Cannot See

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 4 Feb 2026 11:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Tom Rundel shares personal anecdotes and insights about the nature of light, the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, and the significance of the Beatitudes. He emphasizes the importance of understanding unseen forces that affect our lives, the transformative power of imagination, and the call to justice and mercy as central themes in the Beatitudes. The discussion encourages listeners to reflect on their own lives and the societal structures around them, advocating for a compassionate and just approach to living.

takeaways

Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not affecting you.
The nature of light includes both visible and invisible elements that impact us.
The Sermon on the Mount offers a new perspective on societal norms and values.
Jesus' teachings challenge our survival instincts and societal hierarchies.
The Beatitudes call for a radical reimagining of how we engage with the world.
Solidarity is essential in understanding Jesus' message.
Imagination is crucial for hope and social transformation.
Justice and mercy are intertwined in the teachings of Jesus.
The meek are strong-souled individuals who refuse violence as a means of progress.
A vision for the world must be rooted in the Beatitudes to be effective.

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155: Tom Rundel: Speaking Truth to Power

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 28 Jan 2026 11:00:00 +0000

This conversation explores the context of Jesus' beginning ministry, the nature of time, the role of prophets in society, ancient fishermen, and the call to solidarity and healing within communities. Tom Rundel shares personal fishing memories, transitions into discussing the serious nature of fishing in Jesus' time, and delves into the importance of understanding time as a social construct. He emphasizes the need for prophets to challenge unjust systems and highlights Jesus' radical choice of disciples from the margins of society. The conversation concludes with reflections on healing and the presence of God among those who are marginalized.

takeaways

Fishing memories evoke nostalgia and family connections.
Jesus' disciples were not just hobbyists but working fishermen.
Understanding the context of Jesus' ministry requires a shift in perspective.
Time was measured seasonally in ancient societies, not precisely.
Prophets challenge unjust systems and advocate for change.
Jesus' withdrawal to Galilee was a strategic move for a new movement.
The marginalized often see God's light more clearly than the powerful.
Healing is an act of solidarity, not just a display of power.
Community and care are essential in the Kingdom of God.
Imagination shapes hope and action in our lives.

Chapters

00:00Fishing Memories and Family Traditions

06:20Understanding the Context of Jesus and Fishermen

12:05The Nature of Time and Its Impact on Society

18:21The Role of Prophets in Challenging Systems

24:22Jesus' Radical Call to the Margins

30:20Healing and Solidarity in the Kingdom of God

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154: Tom Rundel: The Lamb of God vs The Eagle of Rome

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 21 Jan 2026 11:00:00 +0000

n this episode, Tom Rundel delves into the historical and theological significance of Pope Sergius I's refusal to conform to political pressures in the late seventh century, particularly regarding the phrase 'Lamb of God.' This pivotal moment in church history illustrates the tension between faith and power, as Sergius stood firm in his beliefs despite the threat of arrest. Rundel draws parallels between this historical event and contemporary issues within the church, emphasizing the importance of maintaining the integrity of faith in the face of societal pressures. He highlights how the phrase 'Lamb of God' serves as a radical declaration of God's nature, contrasting with imperial power and domination, and invites listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and the deeper meanings behind their beliefs.

Throughout the conversation, Rundel encourages a re-examination of what it means to follow Jesus, emphasizing that true spirituality is not merely about beliefs but about living out those beliefs in a way that embodies love, vulnerability, and sacrifice. He challenges listeners to consider their desires and how they align with their spiritual lives, ultimately calling for a deeper allegiance to the values represented by the 'Lamb of God.'

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Pope Sergius and Historical Context
02:58 The Significance of the 'Lamb of God'
05:27 Political Pressures and Faith Integrity
10:00 Contrasting Symbols: Eagle vs. Lamb
15:46 The Radical Nature of the 'Lamb of God'
20:27 Faith as a Witness and Spirituality
25:26 Desire and Spirituality: What Do You Want?
30:50 Vocation and Living Authentically
34:51 Closing Reflections and Benediction

Takeaways

'I'm a Christian.'
'God's power doesn't look like empire power.'
'What do you want?'
'Faith is a witness.'
'Desire is naturally human.'
'Tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?'
'The lamb symbolizes self-emptying love rather than imposed force.'
'We can't pretend otherwise, even if these people in power ask us to.'
'This is who Jesus is.'
'Come and see.'

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153: Tom Rundel: Worship What You Have Burned. Burn What You Have Worshipped

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 14 Jan 2026 11:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Tom Rundel reflects on his journey from city life to a deeper understanding of faith, exploring themes of baptism, identity, and the call to repentance. He shares personal anecdotes and historical insights, particularly focusing on the significance of baptism as a transformative act that reveals one's true identity as beloved by God. The discussion emphasizes the importance of solidarity with others and the need for a profound reorientation of values in the context of faith.

takeaways

I did not grow up a country boy.
I wanted to get out of the city.
Fire is a symbol of baptism in the Bible.
Worship what you have burned and burn what you have worshiped.
Salvation and liberation are the same words.
Baptism is an identity marker for us.
We need a new epiphany for the new year.
Repentance is a profound reorientation of values.
We must stand in solidarity with those we help.
You are God's beloved and he is well pleased.

Chapters

From City Life to Country Dreams
The Symbolism of Fire and Baptism
The Epiphany of Christ's Baptism
Solidarity and the Call to Repentance
Identity and Belovedness in Baptism

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152: Tom Rundel: The Radical Theology of Incarnation

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 7 Jan 2026 11:00:00 +0000

This conversation explores the life and theology of Julian of Norwich, a 14th-century mystic who lived through the Black Death. Tom Rundel discusses how Julian's experiences shaped her radical theology, emphasizing God's love and presence in suffering. The conversation also delves into the nature of God, the distinction between the world and God's kingdom, and the importance of radical inclusion in the Christian faith. Finally, it advocates for a shift from Christian nationalism to localism, encouraging deeper community engagement and awareness of God's presence in everyday life.

takeaways

Julian of Norwich lived through the Black Death, shaping her theology.
Her visions emphasized God's love and presence in suffering.
Julian's radical theology countered the belief in God's wrath during the plague.
God's love is deeper than death, offering hope amidst suffering.
The world is not separate from God's kingdom; we live in both.
God's presence is often unrecognized due to societal power structures.
Radical inclusion in God's family transcends race and status.
Christian localism emphasizes community engagement and care.
God's vulnerability is shown through proximity to humanity.
The gospel addresses both spiritual and physical realities.

Chapters

Introduction to Julian of Norwich
Julian's Life During the Black Death
Visions and Revelations of Divine Love
The Nature of God's Love
Understanding the World and God's Presence
The Power Structures of the World
Radical Theology and Belonging
Christian Localism and Community Engagement

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151: Tom Rundel: The Political Tyranny of Herod the Great

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 31 Dec 2025 11:00:00 +0000

summaryThis conversation explores the unique perspectives of the Gospels, particularly focusing on the historical context of the Hebrew people, the rise and rule of Herod the Great, and the implications of Jesus' birth in relation to Herod's tyranny. It delves into the narrative parallels between Moses and Jesus, the significance of lamentation as a form of resistance, and the overarching theme of power dynamics in biblical history. The discussion culminates in reflections on authenticity and the nature of silence in the face of oppression.

takeaways

Different Gospels target different audiences with unique perspectives.
Herod the Great's rule was marked by violence and political maneuvering.
The historical context of the Hebrew people is crucial to understanding the Gospels.
Herod's fear of losing power led to the slaughter of innocent children.
The narrative aligns Jesus with Moses, framing him as a new leader.
God communicates through dreams, bypassing traditional power structures.
Lamentation is a vital form of resistance against oppression.
Herod's death symbolizes the triumph of Jesus' life and message.
Matthew's account seeks to correct the narrative surrounding Herod.
Silence can lead to authenticity and self-discovery.

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150: Tom Rundel: Love is Not Sentiment

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 24 Dec 2025 11:00:00 +0000

This reflection explores love as a disruptive, risky, and compassionate force revealed in the Advent story of Joseph and Mary. Rather than portraying love as perfection or rule-following, it shows how imperfect love—choosing mercy over fear and presence over withdrawal—is enough to bring God into the world. Joseph’s decision to stay, despite uncertainty and social risk, reframes righteousness as compassion and justice as mercy, inviting listeners to see love as embodied courage in liminal, in-between spaces.

Chapter Breakdown

Liminal Space and Advent Love
Life is lived in “in-between” spaces where transformation and possibility emerge; Advent highlights love within this liminality.

The Disruption of the Virgin Birth
God breaks patriarchal and monarchical expectations by entering the world quietly, without coercion or male control.

Joseph’s Imperfect Love
Joseph follows the law yet chooses mercy, redefining righteousness as compassion rather than strict rule-keeping.

Love Resists Sanctioned Violence
Love stands against violence even when that violence is justified by religion or law.

God Interrupts Closed Systems
Through dreams and divine invitation, God opens new possibilities beyond fear-driven decisions.

Love Must Be Embodied
Love is not an idea or doctrine but something lived out through risky, faithful action.

Risky Fidelity Over Safe Withdrawal
Joseph chooses to stay and grow through love rather than escape discomfort.

Reflection and Practice
Listeners are invited into self-examination and imaginative prayer to embody love in their own lives.

Key Takeaways

Love often arrives as disruption, not certainty

Imperfect love is still enough to bring God into the world

Righteousness is compassion, not mere rule-following

Justice and mercy are inseparable

Love resists fear-driven withdrawal

God opens new possibilities when systems feel closed

Love grows when fear is faced rather than avoided

Staying present can be a holy, transformative act

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149: Tom Rundel: Peace is Not the Absence of Chaos

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 17 Dec 2025 11:00:00 +0000

In this episode, Dr. Tom Rundel explores the themes of Advent, focusing on peace as a central concept. He reflects on personal experiences of chaos and stress, particularly during a planned power outage, and contrasts these with moments of genuine peace found in community service. The discussion delves into the nature of peace, emphasizing that it is not merely the absence of chaos but a powerful force that can disrupt unjust systems. The episode concludes with a reflection on expectations and how they can blind us to the peace that exists in our lives.

takeaways

Advent is a time for reflection on hope, joy, and peace.
Peace is not just tranquility; it is a deeper state of being.
Experiencing chaos can lead to a greater understanding of peace.
Expectations can blind us to the peace present in our lives.
True peace can disrupt unjust systems and promote liberation.
Peace exists in every moment, regardless of circumstances.
Breath meditation can help tap into inner peace.
Community service can be a source of genuine peace.
Peace is a generous contribution to the good of all.
The world is not saved through force but by a change of consciousness.

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148: Tom Rundel: Joy is Not a Mood

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 10 Dec 2025 11:00:00 +0000

He contrasts joy with happiness, emphasizing that joy is a deeper, more resilient state that can coexist with sorrow and is not dependent on circumstances. The discussion also delves into the historical context of apartheid in South Africa and how Tutu's joyful spirit served as a powerful form of resistance against oppression. The conversation concludes with an invitation to meditate on joy and its significance in our lives.

takeaways

Advent is a preparation for the arrival of God into our lives.
Joy is not an emotion but a resilient state of being.
Happiness can be tied to brain chemicals like dopamine, but joy transcends that.
Desmond Tutu exemplified joy in the face of oppression.
Joy can coexist with sorrow and is rooted in reality.
Repentance is about awakening to one's true self.
Joy is a revolutionary force that cannot be governed.
The fire of God is illuminating and cleansing, not punitive.
Joy invites us to new beginnings and deeper connections.
Meditating on joy can help us connect with our true selves.

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147: Tom Rundel: Toxic Positivity Vs Hope

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 3 Dec 2025 11:00:00 +0000

In this episode, Tom Rundel explores the concept of hope versus toxic positivity, particularly within the context of Advent and the Christian faith. He discusses how hope is often misunderstood as mere optimism or positivity, and instead argues that true hope involves acknowledging reality and potential, even in the face of despair. Rundel shares personal insights and experiences, emphasizing the importance of co-authoring a better future with God, rather than relying on clichéd narratives.

Takeaways

The majority of our life is lived in liminal space.
Hope is not a denial of reality but an awareness of it.
Toxic positivity replaces reality with comforting narratives.
True hope involves acknowledging both reality and potential.
Bad theology insulates us from reality.
Hope is born when the human spirit confronts despair.
We are participants in God's unfolding future.
Hope requires co-authoring a better future with God.
Clichés are not true theology but can be comforting.
Hope travels through despair to reach the other side.

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146: Tom Rundel: God is Not an Idea

tomrundel@gmail.com (Tom Rundel) — Wed, 26 Nov 2025 11:00:00 +0000

In this episode, Tom Rundel explores the meaning of Christ the King Sunday, the conclusion of the liturgical year, and uses Psalm 46 to challenge the common Western tendency to treat God as a mere idea rather than an embodied reality. Rundel unpacks the Psalmist’s imagery—refuge, river, stillness—to point listeners toward a faith that is lived, practiced, and experienced in the body, not simply thought in the mind. He contrasts the biblical embodied pathway of spiritual trust with the modern habit of “spiritual bypassing,” urging listeners to regulate their nervous systems not with ideas but with grounding practices, presence, and embodied trust. In a world that feels like it is shaking, this episode reframes stillness as a revolutionary act of faith.

Key Takeaway Moments
Liturgical time shapes us: The liturgical calendar exists to form us, not to reflect our preferences or current news cycles. Christ the King Sunday was created to resist nationalism:
Pope Pius XI introduced it in 1925 in response to rising secularism, nationalism, and authoritarianism after World War I.
Psalm 46 is embodied, not abstract: God as refuge is comparable to a life-saving oasis in an actual desert—not an inspirational concept but a physical experience.
Ideas alone cannot calm the nervous system: Overthinking spiritual truths cannot regulate fear, anxiety, or overwhelm; we need embodied practices.
God is encountered in the physical world: Walks in nature, shared meals, prayer, meditation, therapy, community, and rhythms of grounding connect us with divine presence.
Be still = “Stop it”: The Hebrew phrase carries the tone of a sharp interruption—God breaking into human anxiety, war, and inner conflict. Your identity is not your performance: We must detach our self-worth from opinions, productivity, and inner narratives.
Divine life flows through reality like a river: God is woven into creation’s fabric, inviting us into steady presence rather than frantic striving.
Stillness is not passivity but resistance: Trust is an active response that disrupts fear, violence, and domination—within society and within ourselves.

Chapter Breakdown
1. The Liturgical Year and Christ the King Sunday Tom explains how the liturgical calendar shapes Christian reflection and why Christ the King Sunday was added in 1925 as a response to nationalism and authoritarianism.
2. Introducing Psalm 46 He situates the Psalm as an ancient song meant to be sung, full of poetic imagery that speaks to a trembling world.
3. God as Refuge — More Than an Idea Tom describes the wilderness of the Sinai Peninsula and the oasis at En Gedi to illustrate that God as “refuge” was originally a lived survival experience, not an abstract thought.
4. Ideas vs. Embodied Faith He critiques Western Christianity’s tendency to reduce faith to thoughts, arguing that nervous systems cannot be soothed by ideas alone.
5. Experiencing God Through the Body Tom highlights spiritual grounding practices—walks, rest, prayer, therapy, worship—as places where divine presence is actually encountered.
6. The River of God Using imagery from ancient Egypt and Jerusalem, he shows how rivers symbolized life, stability, and divine presence in the midst of chaos.
7. “Be Still” as a Divine Intervention Tom reframes “be still and know” as God forcefully stopping human violence and inner chaos—less gentle contemplation, more “stop it.”
8. The Inner War He identifies the internal battles of self-worth, anxiety, and fear, urging listeners to stop fueling the war through performance and self-criticism.
9. God Woven Into Reality He quotes Ilya Delio and others to describe divine life as flowing through the cosmos; faith becomes an embodied way of being.
10. Reflection & Practice Tom offers reflection questions and a spiritual practice for the week, ending with a poem titled Still Here by Paul A. Jones.

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145: Bruce Epperly: Process, Peace, and the Planet. Healing the World

tomrundel@gmail.com (Bruce Epperly) — Wed, 19 Nov 2025 11:00:00 +0000

In this episode of Liminal Living, Tom Rundel welcomes theologian and author Bruce Epperly back for his third appearance to discuss his new book, Healing the World: Whitehead, Francis, Clare, and Bonaventure on Spiritual and Planetary Transformation. Their conversation flows through themes of hope, mysticism, process theology, and spiritual imagination in a world in need of healing.

They explore how Francis of Assisi, Clare, and Bonaventure embodied a spirituality of simplicity and interconnection that can inspire today’s efforts toward peace, ecological care, and compassionate living. Bruce also shares insights from Alfred North Whitehead’s process philosophy, drawing connections between divine immanence and the living presence of God within creation.

From stories of pilgrimage in Ireland to reflections on hope amid political despair, the conversation invites listeners to see each moment as sacred, each small act as part of healing the moral and spiritual fabric of the world.

Chapters

Pilgrimage and Peace in Ireland – Bruce recounts his trip with Gareth Higgins and Diana Butler Bass, exploring lessons from Northern Ireland’s peacemaking for today’s polarized world.
Hope Beyond Despair – Discussing the moral arc of history, Jeremiah’s field, and faith in uncertain times.
The Inspiration for Healing the World – How synchronicity, Whitehead, and Francis converged in Bruce’s creative and theological journey.
Francis, Clare, and Bonaventure – Mini-biographies and their radical simplicity, feminism, philosophy, and spiritual clarity.
Process Theology and Mysticism – The union of Whitehead’s philosophy with Franciscan spirituality; God as immanent, relational, and present in all things.
Reimagining Prayer and Presence – Tom shares a personal story about reframing prayer and blessing through a process-oriented, Celtic lens.
Healing vs. Curing the World – Bruce’s distinction between transformation and domination; hope through faithful small acts.
The Song That Cannot Be Taken Away – Francis’s joy on his deathbed and the spiritual defiance of singing amid darkness.

Prophetic Healing and Hope – Speaking truth with compassion, judgment as healing, and love as resistance.

Invitation to Participate – Bruce encourages listeners to join the movement of healing through group study, contemplation, and daily acts of love.

Takeaways

Hope is active—it’s “buying a field” for a future you may never see.
Healing begins in small acts; the world changes one moment at a time.
Francis and Clare broke boundaries between rich and poor, male and female, human and non-human.
God is not distant or supernatural but interwoven through all of creation.
Prayer is not about summoning God but awakening awareness of divine presence already within the moment.
True spirituality bridges barriers—between people, faiths, and even species.
Prophetic healing names injustice while seeking reconciliation, not destruction.
Music and joy are sacred resistance against fear and despair.
Each person contributes to the ongoing creation through small faithful actions aligned with love.

Links

web: https://www.drbruceepperly.com/

Book: Healing the World: Whitehead, Francis, Clare, Bonaventure

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144: Kathy Khang: You Made it Weird, When Faith Divorces from Life

tomrundel@gmail.com (Kathy Khang) — Wed, 12 Nov 2025 11:00:00 +0000

In this engaging conversation, Tom Rundel and Kathy Khang explore the complexities of faith, deconstruction, and the journey towards reimagining spirituality in a modern context. They discuss the importance of love, community, and the challenges of navigating conversations with differing perspectives. Kathy shares her insights on embodied theology, the significance of human connection, and the need for authenticity in faith practices. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of acknowledging past mistakes, trusting one's voice, and finding magic in everyday moments, ultimately advocating for a more compassionate and human-centered approach to spirituality.

takeaways

Kathy emphasizes the importance of love in understanding God.
Navigating tensions between love and anger is crucial in today's world.
Conversations with differing perspectives require discernment and good faith.
Embodied theology connects faith with physical experiences.
Authenticity in faith practices is a challenge for many.
Human connection is vital in moments of grief and loss.
Language shapes our faith and community interactions.
Trusting our voices requires acknowledging past mistakes.
Making peace with our past is essential for growth.
Finding magic in everyday moments enriches our spiritual journey.

Chapters

00:00 Welcome Back and Coffee Conversations
03:03 Deconstructing Faith and Reimagining God
06:01 Living in Tension: Love and Anger
09:10 Navigating Conversations with Different Perspectives
11:50 Embodied Theology: Experiencing God in the Physical World
15:02 Reconnecting with Humanity and Faith
17:58 The Challenge of Authenticity in Faith
20:49 Human Connection in Grief and Loss
23:59 The Role of Language in Faith and Community
27:03 Trusting Our Voices in a Changing Landscape
30:14 Making Peace with Our Past
33:01The Journey of Transformation and Mistakes
36:01 Finding Magic in Everyday Moments
38:57 The Power of Presence and Community
41:47 Navigating the Complexity of Faith and Identity
45:02 Final Thoughts on Faith and Humanity

Links:

Kathy's Books {Click Here]

web: http://www.kathykhang.com/

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143: Chad Bahl: Beyond the Pitchfork: A Process Relational View of Demonic Evil

tomrundel@gmail.com (Chad Bahl) — Wed, 5 Nov 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

If a good God exists, why does suffering occur?
We often attribute suffering to a greater good.
The mystery of God's plan can be hard to understand.
Tragedies like cancer and war challenge our beliefs.
Supernaturalism becomes problematic when faced with evil.
The death of children raises profound questions about faith.
World events like the Holocaust complicate the narrative of a good God.
Understanding suffering requires deep philosophical inquiry.
Faith can be tested by the realities of life.
The conversation highlights the struggle between belief and evidence.

Links:
Book: [Click Here]

Article: [Beyond the Pitchfork]

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142: Thomas Jay Oord: Why Prayer "Doesn't Work." Re-enchanting the World

tomrundel@gmail.com (Thomas Jay Oord) — Wed, 29 Oct 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Deconstruction is a journey many are experiencing.

The dichotomy of natural and supernatural is outdated.

Prayer should be seen as cooperation with God.

God's omnipotence is often misunderstood.

Selective miracles create distrust in God.

Enchantment in the world is often overlooked.

Philosophy and theology should work together.

Resurrection narratives can be reinterpreted.

Life after death may involve continued subjective experience.

Trust in God can be rebuilt through understanding God's nature.

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141: Andrew M Davis: Cosmological Humility, Living Between Science and Spirit

tomrundel@gmail.com (Andrew M Davis) — Wed, 22 Oct 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Philosophy begins in wonder and should cultivate it.
The universe is not disenchanted; it is full of wonder.
Science and spirituality can coexist and enrich each other.
Values are perceived through our consciousness and are objective.
Art and poetry play a crucial role in understanding reality.
Experiences of enchantment can be reintroduced into our lives.
The journey of understanding death can be transformative.
The integration of science and faith requires humility.
Objective values exist but must be understood in context.
Practices like meditation and storytelling can enhance our sense of wonder.

Chapters

Introduction and Context of Wonder
The Journey of Deconstruction and Re-enchantment
Integrating Science and Spirituality
The Nature of Spirit and Consciousness
The Renaissance of Panpsychism
Reconnecting Spirit and Matter
Indigenous Worldviews and Colonial Perspectives
The Limitations of Language and Dogma
Art, Poetry, and the Enchantment of Science
Experiencing the Enchantment of Life
The Interplay of Subjective and Objective Values
Practices for Embracing Enchantment

Links

Course: https://www.whiteheadsuniverse.com/

Web: https://www.andrewmdavis.info/

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140: Anthony Smith: This Ain't Revival

tomrundel@gmail.com (Anthony Smith) — Wed, 15 Oct 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Chapters Navigating Change: Personal and Professional Transitions The Political Landscape: Insights from Local Governance Reimagining God: Contrasting Views in Christianity The Kingdom of God: Understanding Its True Nature Revival or Division? The Current State of Christianity The Echoes of McCarthyism Awakening from Christian Nationalism The Cruelty of Reality The Cost of Austerity Revival and Reversal of Power Grassroots Hope and Community Building

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139: Matt Tebbe: Reimagining God Beyond Empire Economics Pt 2 of 2

tomrundel@gmail.com (Matt Tebbe) — Wed, 8 Oct 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Being in nature and facing challenges is vital.
Community support is essential during difficult times.
Toxic positivity denies reality; genuine hope acknowledges pain.
Pastors often feel powerless in a chaotic world.
The need for pastoral care is mutual between pastor and congregation.
Navigating political issues in ministry is complex.
Moral choices in politics often feel inconsistent.
Christian nationalism poses a significant challenge to faith.
Capitalism influences our understanding of God.
We must imagine God beyond economic systems. Self-interest governs the market, but it conflicts with the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God operates on grace, not merit.
Christianity has been co-opted by capitalism in America.
The Enlightenment shifted God from the material to the immaterial.
Debt relief is a biblical principle that many Christians overlook.
Christian nationalism often distorts the true message of the Gospel.
Freedom and supremacy are often conflated in religious contexts.
Naming systemic issues is crucial for spiritual growth.
Experiments against mammon can lead to meaningful change.
Community practices can reclaim time and challenge capitalist norms.

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138: Matt Tebbe: Reimagining God Beyond Empire Economics: Pt 1

tomrundel@gmail.com (Matt Tebbe) — Wed, 1 Oct 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Being in nature and facing challenges is vital.
Community support is essential during difficult times.
Toxic positivity denies reality; genuine hope acknowledges pain.
Pastors often feel powerless in a chaotic world.
The need for pastoral care is mutual between pastor and congregation.
Navigating political issues in ministry is complex.
Moral choices in politics often feel inconsistent.
Christian nationalism poses a significant challenge to faith.
Capitalism influences our understanding of God.
We must imagine God beyond economic systems. Self-interest governs the market, but it conflicts with the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God operates on grace, not merit.
Christianity has been co-opted by capitalism in America.
The Enlightenment shifted God from the material to the immaterial.
Debt relief is a biblical principle that many Christians overlook.
Christian nationalism often distorts the true message of the Gospel.
Freedom and supremacy are often conflated in religious contexts.
Naming systemic issues is crucial for spiritual growth.
Experiments against mammon can lead to meaningful change.
Community practices can reclaim time and challenge capitalist norms.

Sponsors
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137: Tori Owens & Jonathan Foster: Rooting God in the Human Experience

tomrundel@gmail.com (Tori Owens, Jonathan Foster) — Wed, 24 Sep 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Tori Owens and Jonathan Foster discuss their experiences with open and relational theology.
The definition of love is explored as a non-violent, non-scapegoating energy.
Personal stories play a crucial role in understanding authority within the church.
God assumptions can shape our emotional well-being and spirituality.
Reimagining God in modern contexts is essential for spiritual growth.
Emotional well-being is tied to our understanding of God and how we relate to others.
Integrating new understandings of God requires practical steps in daily life.
Listening to our bodies can provide insights into our emotional state and spirituality.
Acting our way into new ways of thinking is more effective than merely changing our thoughts.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of love-centric theology over power-centric theology.

Links:

Links: Jonathans many links: https://www.jonathanfosteronline.com/

Tori's Substack: https://toriowens.substack.com/

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136: Matt Alexander: Reimagining God After Burnout

tomrundel@gmail.com (Matt Alexander) — Wed, 17 Sep 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Ministry leadership is inherently difficult and often leads to burnout.
Burnout can stem from vocational disappointment and unmet expectations.
Relational injuries within ministry contexts are common and can be deeply impactful.
Pastors often neglect their emotional health, leading to unregulated emotions.
It's essential for pastors to have friendships outside their congregations.
The Kineo Center provides support for pastors experiencing burnout.
Naming and addressing emotions is crucial for mental health.
Internalized expectations can distort a pastor's sense of self.
Navigating change in ministry requires awareness of relational dynamics.
Creating space for lament in church settings is important for emotional health.

Links:
The Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/
The Quiz: https://www.thekineocenter.com/burnoutprevention

Sponsors
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135: Josh Patterson: From Deconstruction to Re-Enchantment

tomrundel@gmail.com (Josh Patterson) — Wed, 10 Sep 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Josh Patterson discusses his recent exploration of radical theology.

The conversation highlights the importance of ongoing education through podcasts.

Tom Rundel reflects on the evolution of his own theological perspectives.

The hosts discuss the need for re-enchantment in a post-deconstruction world.

Process theology is presented as a way to understand God as a verb rather than a noun.

The conversation touches on the interconnectedness of all beings and the importance of community.

The hosts emphasize the significance of storytelling in spirituality.

They explore the role of symbols in religious traditions and their meanings.

The discussion includes the importance of humility in understanding different faiths.

The hosts encourage listeners to experiment with their faith and experiences.

Links:

Web: https://www.joshuagpatterson.com/

Pod: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rethinking-faith/id1438696524

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/RethinkingFaith

Sponsors
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134a: Let Love Rule: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Thu, 4 Sep 2025 04:00:00 +0000

Tom Rundel and Jeremie Wilson conclude their Summer Songs of Resistance series with a cover of Lenny Kravitz's Let Love Rule Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

134: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 10

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Wed, 3 Sep 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Music serves as a powerful tool for social change.
The influence of U2 has shaped contemporary worship music.
Songwriting often reflects personal and societal struggles.
Love is portrayed as the most powerful force in the universe.
Escapism in music can provide solace in difficult times.
The Edge's guitar work exemplifies serving the song over showmanship.
Music can evoke deep emotional responses and connections.
Critique of empire and societal norms is essential in art.
The importance of community and shared values in music.
Artistic expression can challenge and inspire change.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)

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Connect
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133a: Subterranean Homesick Alien: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Thu, 28 Aug 2025 04:00:00 +0000

Tom Rundel and Jeremie Wilson continue their Summer Songs of Resistance series with a cover of Radio Head's Subterranean Homesick Alien Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

133: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 9

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Music serves as a powerful tool for social change.
The influence of U2 has shaped contemporary worship music.
Songwriting often reflects personal and societal struggles.
Love is portrayed as the most powerful force in the universe.
Escapism in music can provide solace in difficult times.
The Edge's guitar work exemplifies serving the song over showmanship.
Music can evoke deep emotional responses and connections.
Critique of empire and societal norms is essential in art.
The importance of community and shared values in music.
Artistic expression can challenge and inspire change.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)

Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)

Connect
Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/

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132a: What Are We Afraid Of: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Thu, 21 Aug 2025 04:00:00 +0000

Tom Rundel and Jeremie Wilson continue their Summer Songs of Resistance series with a cover of an original tune Jeremie Wrote. Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

132: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 8

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Wed, 20 Aug 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Music serves as a powerful tool for social change.
The influence of U2 has shaped contemporary worship music.
Songwriting often reflects personal and societal struggles.
Love is portrayed as the most powerful force in the universe.
Escapism in music can provide solace in difficult times.
The Edge's guitar work exemplifies serving the song over showmanship.
Music can evoke deep emotional responses and connections.
Critique of empire and societal norms is essential in art.
The importance of community and shared values in music.
Artistic expression can challenge and inspire change.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)

Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)

Connect
Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/

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131a: Running to Stand Still: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Thu, 14 Aug 2025 04:00:00 +0000

Tom Rundel and Jeremie Wilson continue their Summer Songs of Resistance series with a cover of U2's Running to Stand Still Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

131: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 7

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Music serves as a powerful tool for social change.
The influence of U2 has shaped contemporary worship music.
Songwriting often reflects personal and societal struggles.
Love is portrayed as the most powerful force in the universe.
Escapism in music can provide solace in difficult times.
The Edge's guitar work exemplifies serving the song over showmanship.
Music can evoke deep emotional responses and connections.
Critique of empire and societal norms is essential in art.
The importance of community and shared values in music.
Artistic expression can challenge and inspire change.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)

Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)

Connect
Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/

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130: Brian McLaren: Reimagining God for the Modern World

tomrundel@gmail.com (Brian McLaren) — Wed, 6 Aug 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Check out Brian's work here: https://brianmclaren.net/ Order his new Book here: https://brianmclaren.net/the-last-voyage-my-new-sci-fi-novel/ Check out his podcast here: https://cac.org/podcast/learning-how-to-see/?fbclid=IwAR2F2SM7RopzGuelD8HOshRFUCxhf9yg0wT9wz6lKWRSy9S6IO0Jnz2DX80 Takeaways Brian McLaren shares a joyful moment with his grandson. The importance of being present in the moment to find joy. Fiction can be a powerful medium to explore complex themes. Imagination is crucial in times of societal regression. Ethics should arise from mutual dependence within communities. Empathy is essential for a healthy ethical framework. The Bible reflects the values of an indigenous people. Progressive Christianity faces challenges in a modern context. Recontextualizing faith is necessary for contemporary believers. Hope is found in the conviction to pursue meaningful actions. Chapters Introduction and Background The Shift to Fiction Writing Exploring the Role of Storytelling Ethics and Community Dynamics The Intersection of Faith and Politics Understanding Indigenous Ethics The Impact of Modernity on Religion The Future of Christianity in a Changing World The Impact of Modernity on Faith Deconstruction and Reconstruction of Faith Diverse Perspectives on God Creeds and Their Relevance Today Recontextualizing Theology for a Modern World Re-enchanting the World Hope Amidst Regression

Sponsors
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Connect
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129a: Freedom: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Thu, 31 Jul 2025 04:00:00 +0000

to listen to the full episode with commentary please check out episode 129 Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

129: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 6

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 30 Jul 2025 10:00:00 +0000

The importance of family and personal experiences in shaping perspectives.
The Isle Royale experience serves as a metaphor for disconnecting from chaos.
Moderate voices in faith often face backlash for political engagement.
Wisdom requires challenging one's own beliefs regularly.
The prophetic tradition in Christianity speaks truth to power.
Hyper-masculine Christianity is on the rise, raising concerns.
Music serves as a powerful medium for resistance and expression.
The impact of war on society is profound and often overlooked.
Christians have a responsibility to address injustice and oppression.
The future of Christianity may depend on its ability to separate from political nationalism.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

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Connect
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128a: How Come: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Thu, 24 Jul 2025 04:00:00 +0000

To listen to the full episode and hear the commentary around this song, please listen to episode 128 Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

128: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 5

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Wed, 23 Jul 2025 10:00:00 +0000

The importance of family and personal experiences in shaping perspectives.
The Isle Royale experience serves as a metaphor for disconnecting from chaos.
Moderate voices in faith often face backlash for political engagement.
Wisdom requires challenging one's own beliefs regularly.
The prophetic tradition in Christianity speaks truth to power.
Hyper-masculine Christianity is on the rise, raising concerns.
Music serves as a powerful medium for resistance and expression.
The impact of war on society is profound and often overlooked.
Christians have a responsibility to address injustice and oppression.
The future of Christianity may depend on its ability to separate from political nationalism.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)

Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)

Connect
Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/

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127: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 4

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 16 Jul 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

The importance of family and personal experiences in shaping perspectives.
The Isle Royale experience serves as a metaphor for disconnecting from chaos.
Moderate voices in faith often face backlash for political engagement.
Wisdom requires challenging one's own beliefs regularly.
The prophetic tradition in Christianity speaks truth to power.

Sponsors
Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)

Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)

Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)

Connect
Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

127a: One Seven Six Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Tue, 15 Jul 2025 10:00:00 +0000

To listen to the full episode and hear the commentary around this song, listen to episode 127 Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

126: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 3

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 9 Jul 2025 04:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, we continue our Summer Songs of Resistance series with Tom Rundel and Jeremie Wilson talking about the role of music as a form of resistance and social commentary. They explore the importance of local action in the face of overwhelming national issues, the need for honest dialogue, and the influence of historical figures in shaping music's impact on society. The discussion also touches on politics, religion, society, and playing a song to accompany: For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

126a: For What It's Worth: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Tue, 8 Jul 2025 04:00:00 +0000

To listen to the full episode and hear the commentary around this song, listen to episode 1256 Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

125: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 2

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Wed, 2 Jul 2025 04:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, we continue our Summer Songs of Resistance series with Tom Rundel and Jeremie Wilson talking about the role of music as a form of resistance and social commentary. They explore the importance of local action in the face of overwhelming national issues, the need for honest dialogue, and the influence of historical figures in shaping music's impact on society. The discussion also touches on politics, religion, society, and playing a song to accompany: Fly Like and Eagle, by the Steve Miller Band. Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

125a: Fly Like an Eagle: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Tue, 1 Jul 2025 04:00:00 +0000

To listen to the full episode and hear the commentary around this song, listen to episode 125. Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

124: Summer Songs of Resistance Pt 1

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Wed, 25 Jun 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Chapters

Introduction and Technical Setup
Localizing Action and Finding Empowerment
The Role of Music in Social Commentary
Songwriting as a Call to Action
Reflections on Lyrics and Social Issues

Sponsors
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Connect
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124a: Fault and Responsibility: Song Only

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremie Wilson) — Tue, 24 Jun 2025 16:00:00 +0000

To listen to the full episode and hear the commentary around this song, listen to episode 124.

Sponsors
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Connect
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123: Keith Giles: Erasing Mary from the Text

tomrundel@gmail.com (Keith Giles) — Wed, 18 Jun 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Keith Giles has written multiple books, including a series on quantum gospels.
The Gospel of Mary is a fragmentary text with significant insights.
Mary Magdalene is likely the central figure in the Gospel of Mary.
The text emphasizes the idea of Christ within all individuals.
There were multiple early Christian communities with differing beliefs.
The Gospel of Mary aligns with the egalitarian views of the Valentinians.
The text suggests a direct connection to God without mediators.
The concept of the 'child of humanity' is central to the Gospel's message.
The Gospel of Mary challenges traditional patriarchal views of God.
Understanding the Gospel of Mary could transform modern Christianity. Evangelicalism often defines itself by its enemies.
The pendulum of faith can swing too far towards isolation.
Community is essential for spiritual growth and understanding.
The Gospel of Mary presents radical ideas about sin and forgiveness.
The emphasis on sin can be detrimental to spiritual health.
Morality should stem from love and connection to others.
Political events can challenge our spiritual beliefs.
Mary Magdalene's role has been historically marginalized.
The Gospel of Mary lacks references from early church writers.
The Quantum Gospel of Mary combines multiple texts for deeper insights.

Links:

Book: https://tinyurl.com/ck8d2et4

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/KeithGiles

Blog: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/

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122: Cynthia Beach: Disillusionment with Christian Leaders

tomrundel@gmail.com (Cynthia Beach) — Wed, 11 Jun 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Cynthia Beach has a deep connection to Castle Rock, Northern Ireland, which inspires her writing.
Her upbringing in a wealthy family contrasted with her mother's devout spirituality.
Disillusionment with Christian institutions shaped her understanding of faith.
Frederick Douglass's writings provided a framework for navigating faith amidst disillusionment.
Operational faith often leads to a focus on exceptionalism rather than true spirituality.
The persona adopted by church leaders can create a divide between authenticity and performance.
Success in ministry can come with the pressure to conform to certain personas.
Disillusionment can be a sign of growth and clarity in one's faith journey.
The paradox of being both depraved and glorious is a central theme in understanding faith.
Cynthia emphasizes the importance of seeing things clearly in one's spiritual journey. The vocabulary around hiding failures often stems from a desire to protect good work.
Exceptionalism often comes at the expense of marginalized groups.
Suffering can lead to humility and authenticity in leadership.
Listening to others is crucial for crafting community narratives.
Hope can be found in personal experiences and divine tenderness.
Creativity should be prioritized and not relegated to the bottom of our lists.
Idle brain time is beneficial for creativity and problem-solving.
The church is facing challenges that may lead to a post-Christian society.
Localizing actions can help combat feelings of hopelessness.
The desire for exceptionalism can hinder genuine connection and growth.

Links:

Web: https://www.cynthiabeach.com/

Book: https://www.ivpress.com/the-surface-of-water

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121: Catherine Cowell: Finding God's Feminine Side

tomrundel@gmail.com (Catherine Cowell) — Wed, 4 Jun 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Catherine experienced her faith journey in small, incremental shifts.
Questioning beliefs can lead to deeper understanding and growth.
Maturity in faith involves embracing uncertainty and mystery.
The divine can be understood through both masculine and feminine imagery.
Catherine's experiences with church communities shaped her views on faith.
The journey of questioning can be seen as an invitation to grow.
Feminine imagery for God exists in scripture but is often overlooked.
Cultural norms have historically marginalized feminine perspectives in faith.
The church's patriarchal structure influences perceptions of God.
Reclaiming feminine imagery can enrich spiritual experiences. Gender roles in faith are often seen as divinely designed.
Both men and women are created in God's image.
The interpretation of scripture is influenced by human perspectives.
Cognitive dissonance is prevalent in faith communities.
Inerrancy of scripture can reflect patriarchal biases.
Jesus elevated women in his teachings and actions.
The divine feminine can unlock new spiritual insights.
Historical context is crucial for understanding biblical texts.
Faith communities often struggle with contradictory beliefs.
A feminine perspective of God can provide healing for those with father wounds.

Links:

Book: https://tinyurl.com/k9c472uf

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/loved-called-gifted/id1627936653

Web: https://catherine-cowell.medium.com/

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120: Lauren Cibene: Navigating Faith, Trauma, and Healing in India

tomrundel@gmail.com (Lauren Cibene) — Wed, 28 May 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Lauren's required reading is 'Life of Pi' for its depth.
'Grapes of Wrath' illustrates systemic evil in society.
Growing up in a fundamentalist bubble shaped her faith.
Trauma led to a painful deconstruction of her beliefs.
Emotional prosperity gospel can distort faith expectations.
Therapy was a crucial step in her healing process.
Traveling to India was a leap of faith for her.
Cultural immersion helped her rebuild trust.
Trusting oneself is a vital part of recovery.
Vulnerability is essential for self-acceptance. Cultural connections can lead to profound moments of acceptance.
Alienation in evangelicalism can hinder personal healing.
Family dynamics often influence our ability to confront pain.
Transformative experiences can occur in mundane settings.
Liminal spaces encourage open-handed living and receptivity.
Reincarnation offers a different perspective on death and rebirth.
Travel fosters humility and a sense of wonder.
Navigating relationships requires understanding and compassion.
Certainty can be found in embracing uncertainty.
Deconstruction is a unique journey that requires patience and self-affirmation.

Chapters:

Introduction and Warm Welcome
Literary Influences and Required Reading
Faith Foundations and Deconstruction
Trauma and the Crisis of Faith
Therapy and the Journey to Healing
Traveling to India: A Leap of Faith
Cultural Immersion and Trust Building
Rebuilding Trust in Oneself
Embracing Vulnerability and Self-Acceptance
Cultural Connections and Acceptance
The Alienation of Self in Evangelicalism
The Impact of Family and Community on Healing
Transformative Moments in Mundane Spaces
Liminal Spaces and Open-Handed Living
Reincarnation and Cycles of Life
Traveling and Humility
Navigating Relationships Through Change
Finding Certainty in Uncertainty
Embracing the Journey of Deconstruction

Links:

Website: https://laurencibene.com/

Substack: https://laurencibene.substack.com/?ref=website

Book: Tiger in a Lifeboat

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119: Michael Gungor: Holy Integration: Music, the Sacred, and the Self

tomrundel@gmail.com (Michael Gungor) — Wed, 21 May 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Bach's music exemplifies a pure expression of creativity.
Creativity flows from a dance between internal and external influences.
Individuality is a unique expression of the universal flow.
Consciousness transcends the boundaries of ego and identity.
The sacred can be found in everyday moments and experiences.
Rituals can help us recognize the sacred in our lives.
Creativity requires both chaos and order to flourish.
The ego can hinder creativity by imposing limitations.
Being present is essential to experiencing the sacred.
Every moment is an opportunity to find the sacred. Creativity involves a balance between chaos and order.
Both feminine and masculine energies are essential in artistic expression.
Shame in music can be addressed through honest, first-person narratives.
Theological language can perpetuate shame if not handled carefully.
Integration of different parts of oneself leads to a more holistic identity.
Non-dual perspectives can help bridge gaps in understanding spirituality.
The question of identity is central to personal growth and understanding.
Every part of us has a purpose, even those that seem negative.
Transcending old beliefs requires including them in our new understanding.
The essence of spirituality is recognizing our shared humanity.

Chapters

Introduction and Setting the Scene
The Genius of Bach and Creative Flow
The Dance of Individuality and Ego
Consciousness and the Nature of Reality
Defining the Sacred in Everyday Life
Creativity: Balancing Chaos and Order
The Dance of Creativity: Balancing Chaos and Order
Navigating Shame in Music and Theology
Integrating Parts: The Journey of Self-Discovery
The Question of Identity: Who Am I?

Links

Music: Gungor Music

Podcast: The Liturgist Podcast

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118: Andy Root: Evangelism in an Age of Despair

tomrundel@gmail.com (Andy Root) — Wed, 14 May 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Andrew Root feels most comfortable surrounded by his books.
The connection between humans and dogs is mystical and profound.
Andrew's childhood experiences with grief shaped his faith.
Lutheranism has a unique cultural context in the Midwest.
Evangelism should focus on consolation rather than mere conversion.
The church's role is to walk with people in their sorrow.
Modern society struggles with deep feelings of loneliness.
Evangelism is often misunderstood as a marketing strategy.
Andrew's experiences highlight the importance of community support.
The conversation emphasizes the need for a deeper understanding of faith. Rituals are essential for happiness in modern life.
Evangelism should not be seen as lifestyle marketing.
Luther's theology emphasizes God's presence in suffering.
Ministry of consolation is vital in addressing grief.
Suffering is a universal human experience.
Pilgrimage invites people to journey together in faith.
Joy and celebration are crucial in community life.
Happiness should not be the ultimate goal.
True contentment comes from connection with God.
Acknowledging grief allows for genuine joy.

Chapters:

Welcome and Introduction to the Podcast
The Mystical Connection with Dogs
Life in a Monastic Cell
Growing Up in Lutheranism
Cognitive Dissonance in Faith
Redefining Evangelism in Modern Times
The Role of Consolation in Evangelism
The Role of Ritual in Modern Life
Evangelism vs. Lifestyle Marketing
Luther's Theology of the Cross
Ministry of Consolation
The Nature of Suffering and Grief
Pilgrimage as a Spiritual Journey
Joy and Celebration in Community

Links

Web page: https://www.andrewroot.org/about/

Book: Evangelism in an Age of Despair

Podcast: When Church Stops Working

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117: Nolan Rundel: The Art of Meaning: Blending Love, Logic, and Liminal Spaces

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 7 May 2025 04:00:00 +0000

Take Aways

Life experiences broaden your understanding of meaning.
Family significantly impacts one's perspective on life.
Cultural and community influences shape personal values.
Art and beauty provide a deeper understanding of existence.
Navigating societal expectations can be challenging.
Authenticity is crucial in personal and professional spaces.
External forces can guide life in unexpected ways.
Finding the right questions is more important than answers.
You must integrate past experiences into your current self.
Personal growth involves transcending and including past beliefs.

Chapters

Introduction and Background
Journey to Becoming a Pastor
Exploring Life's Meaning
The Impact of Family on Meaning
Evolving Perspectives on Life
Cultural Influences on Meaning
Work and Community's Role in Life's Meaning
The Role of Love and External Factors
The Influence of External Forces on Life
The Role of Art and Beauty in Understanding Life
Navigating Societal Norms and Personal Authenticity
Finding Meaning Through the Right Questions

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116: Keith Giles: Reading Romans Right, an Unfundamentalist View

tomrundel@gmail.com (Keith Giles) — Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Keith Giles has written extensively on biblical topics, including the Book of Romans.
The collaborative project with Matthew de Stefano was born out of a shared concern about the misinterpretation of Romans.
Romans is often misused to justify negative ideologies, which the authors aim to correct.
Understanding the structure of Paul's arguments is crucial for accurate interpretation of Romans.
The technique of prosopopeia is used by Paul to present opposing viewpoints in his arguments.
Many Bible teachers overlook the dual voices present in Romans, leading to misinterpretation.
The authors aim to present a more compassionate and loving interpretation of Paul's teachings.
Unity in the church does not require agreement on all issues, according to Paul's teachings.
The clobber passages in Romans are often taken out of context and misapplied.
Paul's emphasis on love and grace is a central theme that is often neglected in traditional interpretations. Romans chapter 1 addresses pagan idol worship, not modern homosexuality.
Co-writing can be a rewarding experience with minimal conflict.
Future projects may include Galatians and Hebrews.
Engaging with critics is essential for theological dialogue.
Romans 13 should be understood in the context of love and submission, not blind allegiance.
Applying Paul's teachings today requires a focus on individual relationships.
Misinterpretations of Romans 7 can lead to unhealthy shame and guilt.
Worship culture often emphasizes a negative self-image.
Theological discussions should encourage grace and understanding.
The journey of unlearning harmful theological patterns is ongoing.

Links:

Blog: Keith Giles Patheos

Book: Reading Romans Right

Pod: Second Cup with Keith

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115: Kevin Sweeney: A Cosmic Christ Meets a Concrete Jesus

tomrundel@gmail.com (Kevin Sweeney) — Wed, 23 Apr 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Show Outline:

Podcast Reflections & Growth

Tom’s journey from uncertainty to confidence in hosting.

Lessons from awkward interviews and maintaining consistency.

Peter Rollins & Parables

Kevin’s college story using Rollins’ parable of the mystic, evangelical, and fundamentalist.

The role of mysticism in challenging dogma.

Kevin’s New Book: Cosmic Christ and Concrete Jesus

Origins: Re-examining faith post-church closure and vocational shifts.

Defining the “Cosmic Christ” (universal divine presence) vs. “Concrete Jesus” (liberation-focused activism).

Bridging mysticism and social justice.

Deconstruction & Embodiment

Faith as direct experience vs. intellectual belief.

The danger of “spiritual insulation” and clichés.

Black Prophetic Tradition

Contrasting the “white Jesus” of power with the radical, marginalized Jesus.

Liberation theology’s influence on Kevin’s work.

Personal & Vocational Shifts

Kevin’s transition from pastoring to hospice chaplaincy.

Letting go of “next things” to embrace the present.

Links:

Web: https://www.kevinsweeneynow.com/

Pod: The Church Needs Therapy

Book: Cosmic Christ Concrete Jesus

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114: Bruce Epperly: Progressive Christianity Can Save Us

tomrundel@gmail.com (Bruce Epperly) — Wed, 16 Apr 2025 04:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Howard Thurman is a significant figure for understanding hope in difficult times.
The current political climate creates a crisis of hope for many.
Progressive Christianity can serve as a counterforce to conservative ideologies.
Empathy is essential for ethical behavior and morality.
There is a divide in Christianity that reflects differing beliefs about God.
Fear and grievance play a significant role in conservative Christianity.
The importance of social justice and activism in faith communities.
Mysticism can be a pathway to understanding our spiritual lives.
The need for a strong, theologically grounded progressive movement is urgent.
Bad behavior often reflects a misunderstanding of God's nature. Empathy is essential in understanding differing perspectives.
Progressive Christianity aims to bring health to society and the planet.
Christianity must evolve to meet contemporary challenges.
Experience should take precedence over rigid doctrines.
Faith should be dynamic and culturally relevant.
God's presence is universal and not confined to one place.
Politics should not define faith, but faith should inform politics.
Moral accountability is crucial in political engagement.
Hope can be found in small, everyday actions.
Self-care and community support are forms of resistance.

Links

Blog: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/livingaholyadventure/

Book: https://tinyurl.com/35ftpnac

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113: Dillon Naber Cruz: Untangling Faith, Fundamentalism, and Nationalism

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dillon Naber Cruz) — Wed, 9 Apr 2025 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Dillon discusses the cultural diversity in Lancaster County, highlighting the coexistence of Amish and Christian nationalists.
He emphasizes the importance of love and neighborly kindness in his theological approach.
Dillon's writing project critiques Christian nationalism through the lens of Jesus and Paul's teachings.
He expresses a desire to understand biblical figures and their teachings more deeply.
The conversation touches on the significance of orthopraxy over orthodoxy in modern faith practices.
Dillon shares his personal journey through fundamentalism and the impact of early religious experiences.
He reflects on the challenges of reconciling faith with modern scientific understanding.
The role of permaculture is discussed as a metaphor for spiritual growth and interconnectedness.
Dillon's experiences in seminary led to a deeper exploration of theology and spirituality.
The conversation concludes with a focus on finding community and meaning in a changing world. Navigating post-fundamentalism involves reconciling faith with personal beliefs.
Experiences of spirituality can transcend traditional dogma.
Spiritual nourishment is essential in today's politically charged environment.
Christian nationalism poses a significant challenge to authentic faith.
The golden rule is a universal principle found across various belief systems.
Personal experiences of grace can reshape one's understanding of faith.
Community support is vital for those struggling with mental health issues.
Hope exists in the form of individuals reevaluating their beliefs.
Compassion towards others, even enemies, is a difficult but necessary pursuit.
The need for a global perspective on love and humanity is more pressing than ever.

Links:

Podcast: https://godsquadpodcast.com/

Blog: https://tattooed-theologian.com/about/

Book: [click here]

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112: Amanda Tyler: How to End Christian Nationalism

tomrundel@gmail.com (Amanda Tyler) — Wed, 2 Apr 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Key Takeaways

Christian Nationalism Defined: A political ideology merging American and Christian identities, often excluding non-Christians and enforcing conservative, white supremacist norms.

Historical Roots: Christian nationalism is intertwined with the doctrine of discovery, slavery, and segregation, using faith to justify oppression.

Power Over Principles: The alignment of some Christian groups with political power (e.g., Trump-era policies) often sacrifices theological integrity for influence.

Violence and Symbolism: Events like the Tree of Life Synagogue shooting and January 6th Capitol attack exemplify Christian nationalism’s violent consequences.

Hope in Community: Grassroots conversations, honest history, and interfaith solidarity are vital to resisting Christian nationalism and fostering healing.

Chapter Breakdown

Amanda’s Faith & Political Roots (00:00–15:00)

Growing up in a Baptist family in Texas.

Early passion for politics, career in law, and work with Rep. Lloyd Doggett.

Faith, Power, and Disillusionment (15:01–30:00)

Tension between Christian values and political power.

Critique of the Moral Majority’s shift from justice to power-seeking.

Defining Christian Nationalism (30:01–45:00)

Links to white supremacy, colonialism, and the myth of America as a “Christian nation.”

January 6th as a modern example of Christian nationalist violence.

Historical Trauma and White Supremacy (45:01–60:00)

The doctrine of discovery, slavery, and systemic racism as foundational to Christian nationalism.

Challenges in discussing race and privilege without triggering defensiveness.

Hope and Resistance (60:01–End)

The role of literature (James by Percival Everett) and community dialogue in healing.

Amanda’s optimism in grassroots movements and truth-telling.

Links & Resources

Organizations:

Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty (BJC)

Christians Against Christian Nationalism

End Christian Nationalism Campaign

Amanda’s Book: How to End Christian Nationalism (available on the above sites)

Mentioned Literature: James by Percival Everett (retelling of Huckleberry Finn)

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111: Aaron Niequist: Faith, Liturgy, and Navigating Disillusionment

tomrundel@gmail.com (Aaron Niequist) — Wed, 26 Mar 2025 10:00:00 +0000

Key Takeaways

From Beliefs to Practice: Aaron advocates for shifting from a beliefs-based faith to a practice-based spirituality, where doing (e.g., forgiveness, liturgy, service) shapes belief more than intellectual assent.

Ecumenical Future: The future of faith communities lies in crossing denominational silos, integrating traditions (e.g., evangelical hospitality with liturgical depth), and creating spaces for diverse expressions of worship.

Critique of American Christianity: Both progressive and conservative Christian traditions often prioritize cultural power (e.g., nationalism, consumerism) over the "enemy-loving, peacemaking way of Jesus."

Embodied Spirituality: Practices like the Ignatian Examen, centering prayer, and communal lament help re-enchant faith by grounding it in the body and daily life.

Soundtrack of Struggle: Aaron’s current spiritual "soundtrack" is the Icelandic band Sigur Rós, whose haunting, wordless music mirrors his mix of disillusionment and hope.

Chapter Breakdown

Introductions & Soundtrack of Life (00:00–10:00)

Aaron shares his emotional state (disillusioned yet hopeful) and chooses Sigur Rós as his metaphorical soundtrack.

Tom recommends Jesse Wells, a folk artist embodying modern resistance music.

Faith Roots & Deconstruction (10:01–25:00)

Aaron’s upbringing in the Plymouth Brethren tradition and later evangelical mega-churches.

His faith crisis and rediscovery of Jesus’ kingdom message through Dallas Willard’s The Divine Conspiracy.

Liturgy, Hospitality, and Re-enchantment (25:01–45:00)

The role of liturgy in forming community and the need for "hospitable" worship.

Critique of evangelical emotional manipulation vs. liturgical depth.

Tom’s story of revitalizing liturgy by rediscovering its symbolic meaning.

American Christianity & Political Disillusionment (45:01–01:00:00)

The dangers of conflating faith with political power.

Reflections on MAGA, progressive capitalism, and the church’s failure to discern.

The Future of Faith Communities (01:00:01–End)

The importance of ecumenical retreats (e.g., Pastors, Priests, and Guides).

Aaron’s book The Eternal Current and practices like forgiveness as “miraculous” acts.

Links & Resources

Aaron’s Book: The Eternal Current: How a Practice-Based Faith Can Save Us from Drowning

Website: aaroniequist.com

Instagram: @aaroniequist

Retreats: Pastors, Priests, and Guides Retreats (Boston, Chicago, Malibu in 2024)

Music Mentioned:

Sigur Rós (Aaron’s soundtrack)

Jesse Wells (Tom’s recommendation)

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110: Preston Sharpe: Liturgical Rhythms, Resurrection Hope

tomrundel@gmail.com (Preston Sharpe) — Wed, 19 Mar 2025 10:00:00 +0000

🔑 Key Topics Covered:

From Charismatic to Anglican: Preston’s journey from a Tulsa megachurch upbringing to embracing sacramental, liturgical traditions.
Why Easter Matters for 50 Days: Rediscovering resurrection as a way of life—not just a doctrine—and its implications for justice, forgiveness, and hope.
Liturgical Living: How ancient rhythms (like Lent, Eastertide, and Ordinary Time) reshape faith beyond entertainment-driven worship.
Deconstruction & Doubt: Navigating faith shifts, cognitive dissonance, and why doubt is a natural companion to trust.
Resisting Christian Nationalism: Re-centering Christian identity on Jesus’ self-giving love over political power.
Practical Faith: Why Resurrection People (Preston’s new book) invites us to feast, celebrate, and embody resurrection daily.

📚 Featured Work:

Preston’s upcoming book: Resurrection People: A Journey from Easter to Pentecost (releasing March 2024).
Weekly lectionary resources at The Art of Preaching Substack.

👉 Why Watch?
Whether you’re deconstructing faith, curious about liturgical practices, or weary of politicized Christianity, this episode offers hope for a faith rooted in Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

🔔 Subscribe to Liminal Living for more conversations on faith, doubt, and spiritual transformation. Like, comment, and share to join the dialogue!

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109: Chad Bahl: God is Not Supernatural?

tomrundel@gmail.com (Chad Bahl) — Wed, 12 Mar 2025 04:00:00 +0000

🔑 Key Topics Covered:

Why Supernaturalism Fails: Unpacking the medieval roots of supernaturalism and its incompatibility with modern questions of suffering (theodicy) and free will.
Process Theology 101: Discover how thinkers like Alfred North Whitehead, David Ray Griffin, and Thomas J. Ord redefine God as a relational, persuasive force within—not above—the natural world.
Panentheism vs. Supernaturalism: How God is the “soul of the universe,” intimately woven into creation’s fabric.
Metamodern Spirituality: Bridging science and faith through experiential, interconnected frameworks.
Practical Implications: How process theology enriches prayer, worship, and ethical living in a post-supernatural age.

📚 Mentioned Works & Thinkers:

David Ray Griffin’s Naturalism PPP
Friedrich Schleiermacher’s God-consciousness
Chad Ball’s devotional Mornings with Schleiermacher

👉 Why Watch?

Whether you’re deconstructing faith, exploring progressive theology, or seeking a God compatible with science and human freedom, this episode offers fresh insights for skeptics and believers alike.

🔔 Subscribe to Liminal Living for more deep dives into theology, philosophy, and liminal spirituality. Like, comment, and share to join the conversation!

Links:

Chab Bahl's Author Page: [Amazon]

Chad Bahl's other Author Page: [Deconstructing Hell]

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108: Jacci Turner: How to Survive this Presidency

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jacci Turner) — Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Grounding in spiritual practices is essential during chaotic times.
Community support can provide strength and resilience.
Limiting social media exposure can help maintain mental health.
Deconstruction can be a transformative process, akin to a caterpillar becoming a butterfly.
Creativity can serve as a pathway to hope and healing.
Intentionality in actions can turn everyday activities into spiritual practices.
Listening to marginalized voices is crucial for rebuilding faith and community.
Open conversations about political differences can foster understanding.
Betrayal can stem from political choices that affect loved ones.
Hope is vital for navigating through difficult times. Empathy can be challenging when political views clash.
Cocooning is a valid way to protect oneself from harm.
Storytelling humanizes experiences and fosters connection.
Finding voices that inspire hope is crucial in difficult times.
Creating safe spaces in community is essential for open dialogue.
Speaking up for justice is a responsibility we all share.
Lowering expectations during grief can be empowering.
Hope is vital for resilience in tough situations.
Maintaining kindness is a personal goal worth striving for.
Rituals can ground us in times of distress.

Links

web: https://www.jacciturner.com/

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107: Danny Bryant: Healing After I Escaped a Cult

tomrundel@gmail.com (Danny Bryant) — Wed, 26 Feb 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Danny Bryant grew up in a religious cult that emphasized moral perfection.
Literature played a significant role in shaping Danny's worldview and personal growth.
Leaving the cult was a long and complex process for Danny, taking over a decade.
Danny's experience in the cult led him to question many beliefs and seek a more inclusive faith.
The trauma from his upbringing continues to influence Danny's life and work as a pastor.
Danny aims to prove that pastoral care can be done with integrity and love, not control and shame.
He draws parallels between cult mentality and systemic issues like whiteness and social justice.
Danny believes that understanding whiteness is crucial for addressing social injustices.
He emphasizes the importance of being in touch with our bodily existence and emotions.
Danny's journey reflects a broader narrative of healing and transformation in the face of trauma. The richness of truth can be overwhelming and transformative.
Assimilation into dominant cultures often leads to heartbreak and division.
Communities built on insularity struggle to foster genuine love and connection.
Hospice spirituality offers a way to acknowledge the need for change and growth.
Insecure possessiveness can lead to addiction to ideas rather than genuine belonging.
The anger in white communities often misplaces blame on marginalized groups.
The Roman centurion's faith exemplifies dignity and humility in seeking help.
We must say no to death and exclusion while affirming human dignity.
The addiction to shame can distort our understanding of love and worth.
True community requires letting go of control and embracing uncertainty.

Links:

Web: www.spaciouslistening.com

Book: https://tinyurl.com/y7bw9fwb

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106: Trey Ferguson: Bad Theology is Killing Us

tomrundel@gmail.com (Trey Ferguson) — Wed, 19 Feb 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Bad theology shapes harmful societal priorities.
Our understanding of God influences our actions.
Genesis 1 introduces God as a creator from chaos.
Jesus embodies the Word that brings order.
Creation reflects a rhythm of forming and filling.
Humans are stewards of God's creation, not slaves.
Rest is essential for sustaining life and faith.
The biblical narrative invites trust in God's provision.
The chaos of society mirrors the darkness in Genesis 1.
God's creation is abundant and meant for thriving. The Tower of Babel story reflects the temptation to empire.
God's desire is for humanity to enjoy life without the chaos of empire.
Our quest for efficiency can harm our relationship with the earth.
Scarcity is a human construct, not part of God's design.
God is actively working in ways we may not immediately see.
The Holy Spirit represents a divine exhale for humanity.
Unity in diversity is a key theme in the reconciliation of Babel.
God's mercy is widening to include all of humanity.
Chaos introduced by humanity can lead to our own undoing.
Seeing others through divine eyes fosters compassion and understanding.

Links:

Web: [Click Here]

Book: [Click here]

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105: Brandon Andress: Navigating the Circumference of Belonging

tomrundel@gmail.com (Brandon Andress) — Wed, 12 Feb 2025 11:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Brandon's morning routine includes ice baths for wellness.
Experiencing a sense of goodness at a young age shaped Brandon's faith.
Faith can provide structure but should not be overly rigid.
Questions about faith can lead to feeling on the fringes of religious communities.
Confession and vulnerability can deepen community connections.
Books can profoundly impact one's understanding of faith.
The essence of faith may be mistaken for its constructs.
Asking questions about the gospel can challenge traditional beliefs.
Personal experiences shape one's understanding of spirituality.
Navigating faith involves balancing personal beliefs with community expectations. The gospel is fundamentally about the Kingdom of God.
Many Christians focus solely on the death and resurrection, neglecting the broader gospel message.
Embodiment is crucial in living out the gospel in our daily lives.
The journey of faith often involves significant transformation and personal growth.
Shalom represents a deep, holistic peace that encompasses more than just the absence of conflict.
The gospel was originally written by marginalized people for marginalized people.
Spirituality should be accessible and relatable, not confined to religious jargon.
Storytelling can be a powerful medium for conveying theological ideas.
The church often struggles with the concept of embodiment in faith practices.
Meditation and mindfulness can enhance our understanding of spiritual truths.

links

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104: David Hayward: Pursuing Spiritual Autonomy, with the Naked Pastor

tomrundel@gmail.com (David Hayward) — Wed, 5 Feb 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

David's early experiences shaped his adventurous spirit.
He has a diverse background in various Christian denominations.
His journey in faith has been marked by exploration and questioning.
A pivotal moment in seminary led to a crisis of faith.
David emphasizes the importance of navigating between faith and doubt.
He experienced a profound flash of insight about the oneness of all things.
David's blog, Naked Pastor, became a platform for his thoughts on spirituality.
He believes every theology has something to contribute.
David's departure from ministry was both traumatic and liberating.
He encourages others to explore their own spiritual journeys. Existential crises can lead to profound insights about faith and ministry.
Redefining pastoral roles can create a more inclusive community.
Love must manifest in policies to be truly effective.
Authenticity in leadership fosters trust and connection.
Diversity within communities enriches the spiritual experience.
The church has both pastoral and prophetic responsibilities.
Spiritual independence is crucial in the deconstruction process.
Personal spiritual practices should resonate with individual desires.
Exploring what you truly want is a vital spiritual exercise.
The journey of deconstruction is unique for everyone.

Links:

https://www.jacciturner.com/

www.nakedpastor.com

www.thelastingsupper.com

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103: Dr. Andrew Bauman: Safe Church, How to Guard Against Sexism in the Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Andrew Bauman) — Wed, 29 Jan 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Dr. Bauman's book addresses sexism and abuse in the church.
He conducted extensive research with over 2,800 women.
The church has a history of silencing women's experiences.
Authenticity is crucial in addressing personal and communal trauma.
Patriarchy fosters a culture of secrecy and shame.
Weaponizing forgiveness can harm victims of abuse.
Theological beliefs should evolve and shed outdated ideas.
Men's insecurities often lead to abusive behaviors.
The church must confront its complicity in abuse.
Healing requires facing pain rather than bypassing it. Forgiveness can sometimes be weaponized in abusive situations.
Emotional and spiritual abuse often goes unrecognized.
Healthy shame encourages accountability, while toxic shame dehumanizes.
Entitlement can stem from suffering, leading to harmful behaviors.
Trusting our bodies is essential for spiritual health.
Men must actively work against sexism and objectification.
Systems in the church often prioritize power over people.
Jesus's actions challenged the patriarchal norms of his time.
Small community models can foster deeper connections and healing.
Personal growth requires confronting our own shadows and ego.

Chapters

00:00Introduction to Dr. Andrew Bauman and His Work

02:53The Need for a Safe Church

05:51Personal Journey and Background

09:08Deconstructing Faith and Theology

11:52The Impact of Evangelical Upbringing

14:47The Secret Life and Authenticity

18:02Patriarchy and Its Consequences

20:56Weaponizing Forgiveness

24:01Confronting Abuse in the Church

32:26The Impact of Forgiveness in Abuse Dynamics

34:49Understanding Shame: Healthy vs. Toxic

36:31Navigating Suffering and Entitlement

37:48Reclaiming the Body: Trusting Our Intuition

39:29The Role of Authority in Spiritual Development

41:10Listening to the Marginalized: A Christian Imperative

43:14Jesus and the Rejection of Patriarchy

45:09Men's Responsibility in Addressing Objectification

48:10Confronting Sexism in Church Culture

50:09The Challenge of Changing Systems

52:07The Value of Small Community Models

54:20Ego, Affirmation, and Personal Growth

57:58Practices for Centering Faith and Self

Links:

Book: https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/safe-church/419431

Workshops: www.Christiancc.org

Blog: www.AndrewJBauman.com

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102: Taylor Thomas: Getting Existential; Tillich, Merton, and Horror Films

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 22 Jan 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Taylor is currently fascinated by Nosferatu and its historical context.
Nosferatu represents a preconception of vampires before they became romanticized.
Horror films often reflect societal anxieties and fears.
Taylor's upbringing in Appalachia was marked by a unique blend of faith traditions.
A progressive preacher changed Taylor's perspective on Christianity.
Thomas Merton's teachings had a profound impact on Taylor's faith journey.
Taylor distinguishes between a personal God and a more abstract ground of being.
Tillich's philosophy offers a nuanced understanding of divinity.
The conversation highlights the tension between traditional and progressive theology.
Philosophy encourages exploration of complex questions in faith and existence. Metaphysics is inherently theological, addressing fundamental questions of reality.
Existentialism encompasses both religious and atheistic perspectives.
Freedom can be both empowering and stifling, leading to anxiety about choices.
Justice should be the foundation of societal structures, not religious identity.
Thomas Merton's views on capitalism and alienation remain relevant today.
Finding meaning often requires looking beyond isolation to community.
The rapid advancement of technology poses ethical challenges for humanity.
Engaging with our communities is essential for personal fulfillment.
Self-reflection is crucial in understanding our beliefs and motivations.
A contemplative approach can help us connect with others and find deeper meaning.

Links:

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/tillich_today/?igsh=bGUwZ2JnMjZmcjVt&utm_source=qr

Web: https://taylormariethomas.squarespace.com/

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@BYTE-GEIST

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tillich-today/id1725855909

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101: Liz Charlotte Grant: Let the Scriptures Breathe

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 15 Jan 2025 11:00:00 +0000

Take Aways

Liz became a birth doula after her own experiences with childbirth.
The process of becoming a mother can be isolating and taboo.
Doulas provide emotional and psychological support during childbirth.
Birth is a transformative experience for families, not just individuals.
Liz's work as a doula involved helping families navigate their expectations and fears.
Women in leadership roles often face unique challenges in church settings.
Liz's faith journey involved significant personal and familial dynamics.
Therapy played a crucial role in Liz's faith deconstruction.
The Bible's interpretation can vary greatly depending on cultural context.
Liz's book explores seeking God in Genesis after losing faith in the Bible. Reading Genesis requires a surrender to the story.
Ancient texts reflect a deep commitment to preservation.
Understanding characters in Genesis offers rich insights.
Hagar's story represents themes of liberation and survival.
Diverse perspectives enhance our understanding of scripture.
The craft of writing ancient texts is complex and laborious.
Historical context is important but not the sole focus.
The Bible is a collection of voices from marginalized communities.
Letting the scriptures breathe allows for deeper engagement.
Exploring midrash can reveal hidden meanings in the text.

Links:

Preorder the book: https://tinyurl.com/mvj7ndh5

Amazon Book: https://tinyurl.com/556zwv4a

Web: https://lizcharlotte.com/

Substack: https://tinyurl.com/97n95fzs

Elizabeth Elliot Article: https://tinyurl.com/yej3dwe7

Avivah Zornberg Resource: https://www.avivahzornberg.com/books.html

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100: Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and the Universe

tomrundel@gmail.com (Andrew M Davis) — Wed, 8 Jan 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

The course 'Whitehead's Universe' aims to introduce beginners to process philosophy.
Whitehead's thinking is described as a prism, requiring multiple perspectives to understand.
Experience is fundamental to both science and spirituality, shaping our understanding of reality.
Process philosophy sees the world as fundamentally verb-like, emphasizing becoming over being.
God is not static but dynamic, growing and changing with the world.
The relationship between God and humanity is reciprocal; we form God through our actions.
The need for a new metaphysics that reflects contemporary understanding of the world.
Mystery should be honored in both theology and metaphysics, allowing for wonder and exploration.
Dynamic perfection suggests that God is ever-evolving rather than static.
The Christian tradition is an ongoing process, not a settled doctrine. Metaphysics is fundamentally about human experience.
We must honor the mystery within ourselves.
Science has its own metaphysical assumptions.
The present moment connects the past and future.
The church's knowledge is also unfinished.
God is the foundation of being and becoming.
Supernaturalism is in retreat; ultra-naturalism offers a new perspective.
God's presence is not detectable by scientific means.
The universe seems fine-tuned for conscious beings.
God continuously saves the world from moment to moment.

Links:

Course: https://www.whiteheadsuniverse.com/

Books: https://tinyurl.com/52bk3fc5

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Andrew-M-Davis

Website: https://www.andrewmdavis.info/

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99: Jeremy Steele: The Skeptic Pastor, Balancing Faith and Doubt

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jeremy Steele) — Wed, 1 Jan 2025 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Jeremy identifies as a skeptic pastor, balancing doubt and faith.
Choosing beliefs that promote love and acceptance is crucial.
The role of a pastor is to help people connect with the divine.
Deconstruction is a lifelong process of questioning inherited beliefs.
The damage caused by rigid belief systems is often pervasive.
Philosophy and theology are distinct fields with different tools.
Authenticity in spirituality can lead to personal growth.
Spiritual beliefs can provide mental health benefits.
The importance of critical thinking in faith matters.
Community and shared mythology are essential in religious contexts. Apologetics can be harmful and create a combative view of faith.
Faith should not be positioned as something under attack.
Teaching apologetics can lead to indoctrination into narrow viewpoints.
The Lord, Liar, Lunatic argument is a false dichotomy.
Churches often prioritize institutional survival over genuine faith.
Control and manipulation are central to maintaining religious institutions.
Skepticism can coexist with pastoral roles in certain denominations.
Community can thrive outside traditional church structures.
Honesty about doubts is essential in spiritual discussions.
Personal experiences shape one's understanding of faith and belief.

Links:

https://jeremy-steele.com/links

https://www.tiktok.com/@skeptic.pastor

https://jeremy-steele.com/suck-book

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98: Peter Rollins: Is God Dead? A Peek Into Radical Theology

tomrundel@gmail.com (Peter Rollins) — Wed, 25 Dec 2024 11:00:00 +0000

In this RECAST conversation with Peter Rollins , we discuss the themes of loss, death, and redemption. He shares his experiences growing up in Northern Ireland and how it shaped his work on scapegoating and peace. Rollins emphasizes the importance of embracing our contradictions and the inherent loss and death that is part of being human. He critiques the idea of a pre-traumatic state and highlights the redemptive power of encountering our own dividedness. The conversation also explores the role of grief and the need to acknowledge and process loss. Rollins connects these ideas to the concept of the death of God and the tearing of the temple curtain, challenging the notion of liminality as a space where the finite and infinite meet. In this conversation, Peter Rollins and Tom Rundel discuss the concept of God and the different ways it is understood. They explore the idea of sublimation and liminality, with Rollins arguing that the eternal exists within certain objects rather than behind them. He sees Christianity as radical in its belief in the death of God and the alienation within the divine. They also discuss the concept of hope and the importance of living in the present moment. Rollins suggests that a better understanding of God in the modern world is one that embraces self-division and ontological unknowing. Find Peter on the Web: https://peterrollins.com/ Find Peter on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCweF6BScvFnbsymouI-znDA Find Peter's Books on Amazon: https://rb.gy/yu7zje Find us on the WEB! - https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

97: Jon Turney: This is Not Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Jon Turney) — Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Jon has worked at Costco for 30 years and has a diverse personal life.
He grew up in a religious household but questioned church teachings from a young age.
Jon's early questions about the Bible led to feelings of rebellion during his teenage years.
His experiences in theater challenged his views on homosexuality and church teachings.
Jon's journey included studying various religions and ultimately identifying as agnostic.
He reconnected with faith through the hyper grace movement, emphasizing God's unconditional love.
Jon became a worship leader and preacher but struggled with the church's teachings on hell and salvation.
His departure from the church was driven by a desire for authenticity in his beliefs.
Jon maintains a friendship with his former pastor despite differing beliefs.
The conversation highlights the complexities of faith, control, and personal growth. Universal salvation was a leading belief before modern teachings.
Engaging in online arguments about faith can be exhausting.
Identifying as a follower of Jesus rather than a Christian reflects personal beliefs.
Christian nationalism has a loud platform that many reject.
Political tensions are affecting faith communities today.
Understanding the roots of anger can lead to healing.
The church's connection to politics is concerning.
Deconstruction can lead to new beginnings and perspectives.
Creating a podcast allows for diverse voices in faith discussions.
Community is essential in navigating faith journeys.

Links

Podcast: https://thisisnotchurch.com/

Book: https://amzn.to/3OIjubx

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96: Blair Coyle: Escaping Evangelical Indoctrination

tomrundel@gmail.com (Blair Coyle) — Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Catching the Northern Lights was a long-awaited dream.
Growing up in evangelical communities shaped my worldview.
Fear-based teachings can lead to obsessive faith practices.
Experiencing spiritual abuse can lead to complex PTSD.
Questioning beliefs is a crucial part of personal growth.
YWAM provided both community and indoctrination.
Different theological perspectives can expand understanding.
The journey of deconstruction is often painful but necessary.
Finding supportive communities is essential for healing.
Books and podcasts can be valuable resources for exploration. Listening and taking a lot of input and learning is crucial.
Music can reflect the struggle of faith and personal growth.
There is a narrative of death and resurrection in belief systems.
Finding grounding in new perspectives can lead to freedom.
Community can provide stability but can also become cult-like.
It's important to navigate the balance between individuality and community.
Influences from music and thinkers can guide personal journeys.
Spiritual practices like meditation can aid in personal growth.
Beliefs can evolve beyond traditional dogmas.
Authenticity in spirituality is a continuous journey.

Links:

https://www.blaircoylemusic.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@blaircoylemusic

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95: Leslie Nease: Free From Toxic Theology

tomrundel@gmail.com (Leslie Nease) — Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:00:00 +0000

Leslie's childhood was marked by instability and a search for connection.
She experienced a significant faith shift after a traumatic event involving her daughter.
The journey of deconstruction led her to question long-held beliefs.
Leslie emphasizes the importance of community and authenticity in faith.
She learned to think critically and trust herself after leaving the church.
The fear-based teachings of her past created anxiety and isolation.
Leslie's experiences on Survivor China opened her eyes to diverse perspectives.
She began to research and question the teachings she was raised with.
The shift from destination-focused faith to journey-oriented spirituality was profound.
Leslie aims to support others in their journeys of faith and self-discovery. I don't believe in hell anymore.
I'm not turning my back on my Christianity.
God is love.
Discipline is for rehabilitation, not punishment.
You don't have to do anything you're not ready to do.
I was taught I was disgusting and unlovable.
We've been putting the blame on everything else for so long.
The kingdom of God is already here and it's in you.
You can't take somebody someplace they're not ready to go.
Honoring the journey looks different for both of us.

Links

Podcast: https://honoring-the-journey.simplecast.com/

Book: [Click Here]

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94: Scot McKnight: Doing Better Political Discipleship

tomrundel@gmail.com (Scot McKnight) — Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:00:00 +0000

Scot expresses discouragement over the political alignment of evangelicals with Trump.
The conversation highlights the importance of character in leadership.
Young people are increasingly disillusioned with the church due to its political affiliations.
Scot emphasizes the need for political discipleship in the church.
The rise of authoritarianism is a concern for many Christians.
Scot believes that America will survive political turmoil.
The church should not be tied to any political party.
There is a trend of rightist leaders being elected globally.
Scot argues that the evangelical church has failed to teach political engagement.
The need for reevaluation of political engagement is crucial for the church. Our devastation is an indicator of our discipleship.
Christians can care at a completely different level.
Politics is about compromise; dissent is necessary.
We should dissent as Christians when policies harm the least of these.
Pastors need to create a culture of political discipleship.
The church must resist becoming an oppressive force.
We need to model constructive political conversations in churches.
The church's future may involve smaller congregations.
Informed political engagement is crucial for the church.
The church's political orientation should be shaped by allegiance to Jesus.

Links:

Amazon Book: https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Jesus-Leaving-Church-Looking-ebook/dp/B0CW1MS88W

Scot's Substack: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/

Scot's Author Page: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IQZDNO

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93: Mattie Jo Cowsert: Unraveling Evangelical Identity

tomrundel@gmail.com (Mattie Jo Cowsert) — Wed, 20 Nov 2024 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Mattie moved to New York City driven by a strong instinct.
Growing up in Branson felt like living on a movie set.
Her upbringing was wholesome but came with pressures.
She recognizes the good and bad in her evangelical background.
Stability in community provided comfort during her teenage years.
Questioning beliefs began at a theater camp in New York.
Evangelicalism often conflates knowing and believing.
Love should not have an agenda in evangelism.
The historical context of women in Christianity is often overlooked.
Diversity in theater challenged her previous beliefs. The concept of divine love is often restricted by societal norms.
Personal identity struggles can lead to questioning established beliefs.
The pressure to conform to evangelical ideals can be overwhelming.
Many truths taught in evangelicalism can be challenged and deconstructed.
Faith should accommodate human growth and change.
Questioning beliefs is a difficult but necessary process.
Control within religious contexts often masquerades as love.
Family support can play a crucial role in spiritual shifts.
The future of Christianity may see a decline in conservative ideologies.
Cultural factors contribute to the current political landscape.

Links:

Website: https://www.mattiejocowsert.com/

Book: Amazon Page

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92: Cassidy Hall: Queering Contemplation

tomrundel@gmail.com (Cassidy Hall) — Wed, 13 Nov 2024 11:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Hiking the Camino was a transformative spiritual experience.
Reflecting on life in three-month segments helps maintain focus.
Faith was a spacious concept in Cassidy's upbringing.
Questions about existence began at a young age for Cassidy.
Deconstruction of faith can lead to deeper self-understanding.
Thomas Merton's writings opened new avenues of contemplation.
Queering contemplation invites a broader understanding of spirituality.
Engaging with political issues is crucial for community support.
Hope can be found in the innocence of children.
Silence holds infinite possibilities for personal growth.

Chapters

Introduction and Background Stories
The Camino Experience: A Spiritual Journey
Reflections on Life and Time Management
Faith and Spirituality: Early Influences
The Journey of Deconstruction
Thomas Merton: Influence and Impact
Queering Contemplation: A New Perspective
Engaging with Political Polarities
Finding Hope in Local Connections
Silence and Its Infinite Possibilities
Liminality and Queerness: Embracing Uncertainty

Links:

Connect with Cassidy: https://cassidyhall.com/

Buy her Book: [click here]

Listen to her Podcast: [click here]

Watch Her Merton Film: https://www.dayofastranger.com/

Sponsors
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91: Rob Bell on the Meaning of Everything

tomrundel@gmail.com (Rob Bell) — Mon, 4 Nov 2024 19:44:12 +0000

takeaways

The journey of life often involves navigating liminal spaces.
Emotional transitions can be profound and transformative.
Writing is a deeply personal and exploratory process.
Names hold significant power in shaping identity.
Self-definition is an essential part of personal growth.
Grief can be processed in various ways, including observation.
Self-awareness must be balanced with self-compassion.
The present moment is all we truly have.
Creative expression can lead to deeper self-understanding.
Life's experiences shape our understanding of ourselves and others. Learning how we became us is essential for growth.
Personal histories can illuminate patterns in our lives.
Trauma is rooted in our cellular nervous system.
Understanding our emotions can lead to healing.
Anger can be navigated without harming others.
Being human involves navigating highs and lows.
Mythologies provide meaning in our lives.
The political is an amalgamation of the personal.
Art helps us transcend our pain.
We can trust in new futures as old myths die.

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90: Bradley Jersak: Nonviolent Atonement

tomrundel@gmail.com (Bradley Jersak) — Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Bradley Jersak emphasizes the importance of community in spiritual growth.
He reflects on the trauma experienced within his faith journey.
The problem of evil is a significant challenge for many believers.
Jersak advocates for a nonviolent interpretation of atonement.
He believes the cross represents God's love rather than divine violence.
The intersection of goodness and suffering is a central theme in his theology.
Jersak highlights the need for healing and recovery in faith communities.
He discusses the importance of acknowledging complicity in societal issues.
The conversation calls for bridge-building across ideological divides.
Jersak's work at St. Stephen's University focuses on peace and reconciliation. We are training bridge builders for reconciliation.
The exhaustion from political entanglement may lead to healing.
Fear of existential crises leads to doubling down on beliefs.
Deconstruction should not lead to spiritual arson.
Religion gestures towards a greater mystery.
The incarnation should not justify Christian supremacy.
God's wrath is not violent anger but self-giving love.
Consequences of turning from love are often called wrath.
Retribution is a dangerous concept in faith.
Faith in violence undermines the teachings of Jesus.

Links:

Author page [click here]

Amazon Book Link [click here]

St Stevens University link [click here]

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89: Danny Cox: Making Inclusive Faith Spaces

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Transparency and clarity are essential in church communities, particularly when it comes to issues like LGBTQ inclusion.
Churches should clearly communicate their theological stance and actively work towards creating an inclusive and welcoming environment for all.
The concept of covenantal relationships, where individuals are bound together in a covenant of community, allows for diversity of theology while maintaining a sense of unity.
Churches should prioritize open and honest conversations, embracing the mystery and wonder of God rather than trying to control or limit understanding.
Pastors should focus on meeting the spiritual needs of their community and creating spaces for diverse spiritual exploration and community. Shifting from winning people to walking with them allows for a more authentic and compassionate approach to relationships.
Questioning and letting go of beliefs, such as eternal conscious torment, can lead to a deeper understanding of God's love and grace.
Creating spaces of love and service, like the Open Table Collective, allows for the inclusion and support of diverse individuals and communities.
Living in liminal spaces, embracing change and uncertainty, can lead to personal growth and a deeper connection with the divine.
Practicing spiritual disciplines, such as prayer and silence, can help cultivate awareness of God's presence in everyday life.

Chapters:

Introduction and Background
Challenges within the Evangelical Church
The Power of Covenantal Relationships
Leaving the Pastoral Realm and Starting Open Table Collective
From Winning People to Walking with Them
Creating Spaces of Love and Service
Living in Liminal Spaces
Practicing Spiritual Disciplines

Links:

https://www.theopentablecollective.com/about-us

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-open-table-collective-podcast/id1667876129

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88: Tommy Preson Phillips: Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 16 Oct 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Take Away Ideas

Deconstruction isn’t about losing faith, but about re-centering on Jesus.
Doubt and curiosity are essential tools in questioning rigid religious structures.
The power dynamics of church leadership need reevaluation; Christ-like leadership centers on humility and service.
The shift from religious laws to virtues (like love, peace, and self-control) is essential for spiritual growth.
The church should create space for dialogue, shared meals, and mutual support to foster genuine community.
People are drawn to authenticity—leaders who admit their doubts and embrace communal wisdom.

Introduction:
Tommy is introduced as a musician and pastor with a love for art and church life. He shares about his background growing up in a Southern Baptist family, his love for music, and the early influence of church culture.

Journey into Ministry:
Tommy discusses how he found himself leading a church in his early 20s, dealing with church scandals, and eventually growing his congregation into a space for those questioning faith.

Deconstruction and Rebuilding:
Tommy explains his personal deconstruction process, including moments of doubt and skepticism. He talks about how his church evolved after leaving a traditional evangelical denomination.

Church Growth and New Models:
The conversation turns to how Watermark Church functions as a community for both deconstructing Christians and new believers, focusing on shared meals, dialogue, and Christ-like leadership.

Power, Capitalism, and Faith:
Tommy critiques the influence of power and capitalism on modern church structures, contrasting this with the teachings of Jesus, and emphasizing the need for a "cross-shaped" leadership model.

The Role of Doubt and Curiosity:
Tommy highlights how doubt and curiosity are vital for spiritual growth, encouraging open questioning of scripture and long-held beliefs.

The Future of the Church:
The episode ends with a discussion on the future of the church, Tommy's optimism about the current shifts in faith communities, and his belief that God's work is revealed in moments of upheaval.

Links:

Book: https://www.zondervan.com/p/invisible-jesus/
Music: https://presonphillips.bandcamp.com/
Watermark Church: Watermark Church Website
Substack: https://tommypresonphillips.substack.com

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87: Tom Rundel: Unfundamentalist Bible Studies: Reinterpreting James 5

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Fri, 11 Oct 2024 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

Tom Rundel reinterprets the Book of James for modern understanding.
Suffering is a common experience, not to be glorified.
Spiritual bypassing dismisses the reality of suffering.
Prayer should be an honest engagement with one's situation.
Lament is a significant part of spiritual practice.
Community support is crucial for those who are suffering.
The role of elders in providing care and support is vital.
Healing is not just physical but also emotional and spiritual.
Spiritual practices should be integrated into daily life.
The church's role is to love and support those in need.

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86: Matt Tebbe: Politics as Christian Practice

tomrundel@gmail.com (Matt Tebbe) — Wed, 9 Oct 2024 10:00:00 +0000

takeaways

The current political and cultural moment in the United States is characterized by the erosion of trust in democracy and the weaponization of fear and anger.
Apocalyptic language is used in political discourse to create a sense of urgency and to rally support, but it often hinders productive conversations and solutions.
Economic realities, such as rising prices and income inequality, are often blamed on political leaders, but the underlying problems are complex and require systemic changes.
The current economic system is profit-centered, prioritizing growth and wealth accumulation over human flourishing. This has led to the exploitation of resources and the neglect of social services.
Building a more egalitarian and pluralistic society requires a shift in values, prioritizing love, faith, and truth over domination, coercion, and control. Evaluate economic policies based on their impact on real people's lives
Pastors can address political issues from the pulpit while maintaining the separation of church and state
Being politically engaged is a responsibility as a Christian
Take care of yourself and pay attention to your body's response to fear and anxiety
Hold onto truth and challenge misinformation
Be open to change and willing to repent

Chapters

Introduction and Recap
New Beginnings and Church Expansion
Interpreting the Political Cultural Moment
The Weaponization of Fear and Anger
The Impact of Apocalyptic Language
Blaming Economic Realities on Political Leaders
The Profit-Centered Economic System
Shifting Values for a More Egalitarian Society
The Impact of Economic Policies
The Role of Pastors in Addressing Politics
Being Politically Engaged as a Christian
Taking Care of Yourself in a Politically Charged Environment
Holding onto Truth and Challenging Misinformation

Links:

https://gravitycommons.com/matt-tebbe/

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/gravity-leadership-podcast/id1356585852

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85: Tom Rundel: Unfudamentalist Bible Studies: Reinterpreting James 4

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Fri, 4 Oct 2024 04:00:00 +0000

n this episode of Non-Fundamentalist Bible Studies, Tom Rundel explores the end of chapter three and the beginning of chapter four of the book of James. He emphasizes the importance of understanding wisdom and knowledge in a non-weaponized context, encouraging listeners to seek genuine wisdom through a beautiful manner of living rather than through superficial appearances. The conversation delves into the nature of true wisdom, the inner conflicts that lead to community disputes, and the necessity of aligning oneself with God through humility and authenticity. Sponsors Quoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise) Connect Find us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

84: Bruce Epperly: Homegrown American Mystics

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 2 Oct 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Mystics experience the divine in everyday life and see the holiness in others.
Mystics can be both heavenly minded and earthly good, working for peace, justice, and the well-being of all people.
Political discourse should involve empathy, understanding, and dialogue, rather than demonization and polarization.
Finding common ground and holding space for different perspectives is essential for progress and positive change.
Mystics challenge the status quo and work towards a more inclusive and compassionate society. Love and understanding are essential in our interactions with others.
Practicing gratitude and mindfulness can bring peace and fulfillment to our lives.
Embracing the past and working towards healing and justice is important for personal and societal growth.
Mysticism can guide our actions and inspire us to make a positive impact in the world.
Living with intention, compassion, and a sense of responsibility can lead to a more meaningful and fulfilling life.

Chapters

Introduction and Discussion of British Mystery Shows
Defining Mysticism and its Connection to Everyday Life
Expanding the Understanding of Mystics and their Role in Society
The Importance of Empathy and Dialogue in Political Discourse
Mystics as Agents of Change and the Need for a Broader Perspective
The Challenge of Loving Your Enemies and Working for Positive Political Change
The Power of Love and Understanding
Embracing the Past and Working Towards Healing
Living with Intention and Compassion
The Role of Mysticism in Guiding Our Actions

Links:

https://www.drbruceepperly.com/

Buy his book: [click here]

Support Links

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83: Tom Rundel: Unfundamentalist Bible Studies: Reinterpreting James 3

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

The book of James addresses the power of speech and its implications.
Teachers in the church are held to a higher standard.
Controlling the tongue is crucial for personal and communal integrity.
Words can shape perceptions and influence actions.
Righteousness is fundamentally linked to justice.
Inconsistency in speech reflects deeper issues in the heart.
The Moloch principle illustrates the dangers of short-term thinking.
Charisma can be a double-edged sword in leadership.
Our words can either contribute to justice or injustice.
Self-reflection on how we are perceived is essential for growth.

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82: Caleb Campbell: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbors

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 25 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Caleb's upbringing in a conservative home shaped his early views on faith.
His experience with neo-Nazi skinheads led to critical questioning of ideologies.
The rise of American Christian nationalism has created a divide in churches.
Many church members are influenced by external political narratives.
Christian nationalism is a blend of political ideology, tribal identity, and spiritual idolatry.
The decline of trust in the church is linked to political affiliations.
Engaging in conversations requires self-reflection and emotional health.
Flipping tables is sometimes necessary, but setting tables is more common.
True change happens at the heart level, not through confrontation.
Hope can be found in the faith of global Christian communities.\

Chapters

Introduction and Symbolism of the Leviathan Sticker
Caleb's Journey: From Conservative Roots to Pastoral Leadership
The Impact of 2016-2020 on Faith and Community
Understanding American Christian Nationalism
The Identity Crisis within American Christian Nationalism
The Decline of Trust in the Church
Navigating Conversations Across Political Divides
Flipping Tables vs. Setting Tables: A Call to Action
Finding Hope Amidst Chaos

Links:

https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan

https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/

Support Links:

Quoir Square 2 Class and Community [click here]

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81: Tom Rundel: Unfundamentalist Bible Studies: Reinterpreting James 2

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Fri, 20 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Faith without action is dead.
The early Christian community emphasized caring for one another's needs.
Treating all people equally is important and goes against favoritism.
Love for our neighbors and living out the social vision of Jesus is crucial.

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80: David Gushee: Defending Democracy From its Christian Enemies

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Faith can provide an organizing center, meaning, and purpose in life.
Gushee's journey of faith involved a conversion experience as a teenager and a broadening of perspectives through studying Christian ethics.
Democracy is a system of government that belongs to the people and is based on a constitution and the rule of law.
Authoritarianism poses a threat to democracy and can be fueled by religious or ideological beliefs.
It is important to defend and uphold democratic principles, including free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, and the protection of individual rights. Support for democracy among Christians has eroded since the 1960s, leading to a sense of alienation and fear among conservative Christians.
Conservative Christians perceive culture and politics as dominated by their enemies and feel oppressed, which has been exploited by political figures like Donald Trump.
Identity-oriented politics and the rejection of pluralism are not aligned with the teachings of Christianity.
The rise of authoritarianism in countries like Hungary and Russia follows a pattern of a once-dominant majority group feeling threatened by societal changes and mobilizing for action.
Preserving the rules of democracy and the constitutional order is crucial to prevent further erosion of democratic values.

Chapters

Introduction and Background
Gushee's Journey of Faith
Broadening Perspectives
Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies
The Threat of Authoritarianism to Democracy
The Erosion of Support for Democracy Among Christians
The Rise of Authoritarianism and the Threat to Democracy
Preserving Democracy and the Constitutional Order

Links:

www.DavidpGushee.com

Buy His Latest Book [click here]

Support Links:

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79: Tom Rundel: Unfundamentalist Bible Studies: Reinterpreting James 1

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Fri, 13 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Reinterpreting scripture passages can help avoid harmful and wounding interpretations that have been used in a religious and fundamentalist context.
Understanding the cultural context in which scripture was written is crucial for interpretation.
Every good and perfect gift comes from God, and it is important to recognize and appreciate the goodness in the world.
Being quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry can lead to better understanding and more compassionate interactions.
Religion should be demonstrated through actions, such as caring for those in need and avoiding power schemes.

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78: Chuck DeGroat: Trauma, Narcissism, Deconstruction, Dark Night of the Soul

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 11 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Links

Pre-order Chuck's New Book: [click here]
Chucks Author Page: [click here]
Chuck's Amazon Page: [click here]

Takeaways

Chuck DeGroat's faith journey was shaped by a mix of embodied spirituality and disorientation due to brokenness in his parents' marriage.
He found a broader understanding of faith through the contemplative tradition and the mystics, which opened up a more expansive language for his experience of God.
Chuck DeGroat's work as a counselor, spiritual director, and author is rooted in his own experiences of pain and the desire to help others navigate their own wounds.
Narcissism in church communities can lead to alienation, disconnection, and the multiplication of pain and abuse.
Self-awareness is crucial in navigating narcissistic tendencies, and it allows for growth, transformation, and the ability to acknowledge and repair the impact on others.
The dynamic between narcissistic leaders and followers is often characterized by mirror hunger and ideal hunger, where the leader seeks validation and the follower seeks fulfillment of certain needs. Being drawn to authoritarian leaders can be a result of feeling a sense of alignment and connection with them, especially for those who have experienced shame and insecurity growing up.
Hypermasculinity is often a defense mechanism to disown shame, and many hypermasculine individuals have experienced profound pain, trauma, and powerlessness in their past.
Paying attention to the inner dashboard, which includes thoughts, emotions, body sensations, behaviors, and interpersonal relationships, can help identify symptoms of trauma and the need for healing.
Deconstruction and the dark night of the soul are similar phenomena that involve questioning and reevaluating one's beliefs and experiences of God, often leading to a sense of disorientation and abandonment.
Being anchored in a state of calm and presence, rather than being stuck in survival mode, allows for genuine connection, curiosity, and engagement with ideas.

Chapters

A Journey of Faith and Disorientation
Exploring the Contemplative Tradition
Navigating Narcissism in Church Communities
The Importance of Self-Awareness
Transformation in the Midst of Pain and Suffering
The Dynamic Between Narcissistic Leaders and Followers
Hypermasculinity as a Defense Mechanism for Disowned Shame
The Inner Dashboard: Identifying Symptoms of Trauma
Deconstruction and the Dark Night of the Soul
Anchoring in Calm and Presence for Genuine Connection

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77: Matt Tebbe: Money, Power, and Abuse in the Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 4 Sep 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Introductions

Climbing Mt. Whitney

Facing Internal Demons on the Mountain

Spiritual Roots in Catholicism

Grace in Community & Abuse on Church Staff

Abusive Leadership Embraces Power and Causes Trauma

Using Your Voice with Clarity and Humility

Spiritualizing the Poor is a Hermeneutic Mistake

The God of Mammon, Power, Money, and Economy

What “Love of Money” Actually Looks Like

Exposing Undercover Idolatry

Mammon’s Weapon is Fear of Death

What Really Causes Inflation

Gatekeepers of the Bible Don’t Actually Like the Bible

Mammon “Works” and Why We Can’t See It.

How to Love our Neighbor

Conclusions

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76: Randy Woodley: Indigenous Spirituality and Decolonizing Christianity

tomrundel@gmail.com (Randy Woodley) — Wed, 28 Aug 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Chapters

Introductions
Cherokee roots
My Oppressive Missionary Colonizer Years
Colonialism woven into the Christian faith
The Violence of Christian Supremacy
Conservative politics picks up the torch of colonialism
The Problem of Disembodied Theology
Shalom and the Failed Western Experiment
Decolonizing the Faith
Colonial Theology that needs to Go: Hell, Exclusivity, and Original Sin
The Practice of Vulnerable Conversation
Conclusions

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75: Kathy Khang: Finding a Home, Immigration and Power in the Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Kathy Khang) — Wed, 21 Aug 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Chapters

Introductions
Good Coffee
Spiritual Roots in the Korean Church in Chicago
Renting church space and false hospitality
Rethinking Hospitality as the Church
Loving Disagreement what it is and is NOT
Love is not nice
Toxic Positivity
The Moving Goalposts of expectation
False apostolic authority used to create exclusive dogma
What loving your enemy can look like
Conclusions

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74: Anthony Smith: Faith, Race, and Politics

tomrundel@gmail.com (Anthony Smith) — Wed, 14 Aug 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Chapters

Introductions

Faith Rooted Organizer

Anthony vs Confederate Statue

An Ecumenical Exorcism of White Nationalism and Racism

An Apocalyptic moment and call

Christians call to apocalyptic action

Hyper individualism and its damage on society

The Gospel and White Jesus made an atheist

The Gospel evolve to meet us

White Christian Nationalism is a form of bad Atheism

Christianity as ideology for the nation state is bad news

A Heart attack and an existential crisis

The Sound of the Genuine

Don’t live apologetically

Pay attention and find purpose

Conclusions

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73: Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions

tomrundel@gmail.com (Chris Green) — Wed, 7 Aug 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Chapters

Intro

Theology and Art

Where does art come from?

What does art do?

Art involves us in the truth

Art opens us up to truth

Imagination and Faith

Sweaty Pentecostalism

Knowing more about demons than about God

Bonhoeffer

A true place to belong

Incarnation shows us what God is like

Conclusion

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72: Matthew J Distefano: The Wisdom of Hobbits for Today

tomrundel@gmail.com (Matthew Distefano) — Wed, 31 Jul 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Key points include:

• The unhealthy balance between individual well-being and community demands in evangelical settings.

• The symbolic and inspirational aspects of Tolkien’s stories and how they relate to real-life experiences.

• The importance of continuing to do good without relying on miraculous interventions.

• Reflections on the role of marginalized voices in pursuing true justice and equity.

The episode delves into the deeper, often overlooked, emotional and spiritual struggles within religious communities, emphasizing the need for genuine connection and personal growth.

Links:

Buy the Book [click here]

check out God Squad [click here]

check out Heretic Happy Hour [click here]

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71: Larry Jordan: Non Religious Spirituality

tomrundel@gmail.com (Larry Jordan) — Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Takeaways

Hold beliefs loosely and be open to subjective experiences and objective evidence.
Recognize the limitations of creedal faith and the need for a more contextualized understanding of God.
Explore the concept of oneness and the connection between mysticism, science, and different religious traditions.
Embrace a sense of awe, gratitude, and responsibility towards everyone and everything.
Question and challenge traditional beliefs and seek a more expansive spirituality.
Contextualizing God in the modern culture requires holding beliefs more loosely and embracing the diversity of religious and theological perspectives.
Reflecting on what is essential to one's faith and being open to different interpretations can help address improper understandings of God.
Moving away from a fear-based understanding of religion and focusing on love, compassion, and service can lead to a healthier and more inclusive spirituality.
Exploring different spiritual practices and engaging with diverse religious traditions can deepen one's understanding and connection to ultimate reality.
Questioning and reevaluating beliefs is a necessary part of spiritual growth and evolution.

Chapters

Larry's Background and Retirement
Exploring Faith and Writing a Book
Questioning Beliefs and Evolution of Thought
Contextualizing God in Modern Culture
The Limitations of Creedal Faith
Challenges of Modern Christianity
Contextualizing God in the Modern Culture
Moving Away from Fear-Based Religion
Questioning and Reevaluating Beliefs
Exploring Different Spiritual Practices

Links:

Buy the Book here: [click here for Amazon link]

Connect with Larry Here: https://larryjordanauthor.com/

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70: Tom Rundel: Recognize High Control Religious Language

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Take Aways

Liminality is the space between what was and what will be, where we are trying to figure out how to be in a rapidly changing world.
High-control religious environments can be toxic and manipulative, exerting authority over individuals and stifling personal growth.
It is important to recognize and reject religious jargon that seeks to control and manipulate others.
Reclaiming common human experiences, such as compassion, honesty, and justice, can help transcend religious boundaries and foster understanding.
When confronted with high-control individuals, it is important to remember that you are not crazy, not engage in their games, and find a way to exit the conversation.

Chapters

Introduction to Liminal Living Podcast

The Impact of Liminality on Individuals and Society

Criticism of Christian Supremacy and Institutional Christianity

The Manipulative Nature of High-Control Religious Environments

Rejecting Religious Jargon and Embracing Human Universals

Dealing with High-Control Individuals

Conclusion and Invitation to Future Conversations

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69: Justin Scoggins: Inking Christ: Tattoos as Religious Art

tomrundel@gmail.com (Justin Scoggins) — Wed, 10 Jul 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Take Aways

Meeting tangible needs in the community is an important expression of faith.
Faith is a journey of growth and evolving perspectives.
Extending grace and love to others is a central aspect of the Christian faith.
The stigma of tattoos in the Christian context can be challenged and reevaluated.
Personal expressions of art, such as tattoos, can be a way to build relationships and express one's faith. The cultural acceptance of tattoos in the church is influenced by historical and societal factors, such as the sexual revolution and the Reformation.
Art, including tattoos, can be a powerful tool for communicating the gospel and bridging the gap between the sacred and the secular.
God can be found in secular spaces, and Christians should strive to embrace and engage with the world around them.
The church should value and appreciate creativity and the arts as a means of expressing and experiencing God's presence.

Chapters

Introduction and Background
From Atheism to Faith
The Evolution of Faith
The Love for Tattoos
Challenging Stigmas and Expressing Faith
Bridging the Gap: Art and the Gospel
God in Secular Spaces: Embracing the World
The Importance of Creativity in the Church

Links:

Buy the book on July 30th: https://shorturl.at/W65VZ

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68: Eric Nevins: Dark Night of the Vocational Soul

tomrundel@gmail.com (Eric Nevins) — Wed, 3 Jul 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Highlights:

Embrace the ongoing process of spiritual growth and recognize that there is no arrival point.
Question expectations that God will make everything smooth sailing and happy.
Allow God the freedom to be creative in how He works in your life and the lives of others.
Recognize the tension between the objective and subjective experiences of God and embrace both.
Don't compare your spiritual journey to others, as each person's experience is unique. Experiencing God cannot be forced or limited to specific activities; it requires openness and a release of expectations.
The lack of space for doubt and lament in Christian worship songs, sermons, and church spaces can hinder authentic expression and growth.
Knowing the stories of God's people throughout history, including their struggles and questions, can provide comfort and perspective in times of doubt and anger.
A theology that acknowledges suffering and difficult questions is essential for a mature and authentic faith.
Faith is a fluid journey, and it may not fit neatly into a specific label or category. The focus should be on living out the kingdom of God in everyday life.

Chapters:

Introduction and Setting the Tone

Eric's Journey to Denver

Questioning Expectations and God's Provision

Looking Back and Adjusting Theology

Growing Up in a Christian Family

Exploring Different Theologies

Seeking Theological Education

Discovering Spiritual Formation

Shifting Understanding of God

The Objective and Subjective Experiences of God

Experiencing God and Releasing Expectations

The Challenge of Prayer and Expressing Anger

The Lack of Space for Doubt and Lament in Christian Community

Knowing the Stories of God's People

The Need for a Theology of Suffering

The Fluidity of Faith and the Search for Authenticity

Living Out the Kingdom of God

Links:

Find Eric here: https://www.ericnevins.com/

Listen to Halfway There here: https://shorturl.at/Ysnzx

Watch this Interview here: https://youtu.be/gHrp_37JB8I

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67: Keith Giles: Decoding the Gospel of Thomas

tomrundel@gmail.com (Keith Giles) — Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Insights

The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of the sayings of Jesus and does not have a narrative like the other Gospels.
The Gospel of Thomas was suppressed by early church leaders, particularly those who opposed the Valentinians.
The Gospel of Thomas was found in 1945 in a clay jar buried in the desert.
Scholars have dated the Gospel of Thomas to the early second century and believe it may have served as a Q document.
The teachings in the Gospel of Thomas emphasize the oneness and connection with God and challenge hierarchical structures in the early church. The early Christian church adopted hierarchical, patriarchal, and uniform beliefs and practices after the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its national religion.
The Gospel of Thomas offers wisdom for steering the church towards a more egalitarian and community-based structure.
Realizing our connection with God and one another is essential for loving and caring for others.
The early church practiced secret teachings, and the shift towards hierarchical structures was a departure from the teachings of Jesus and Paul.

Chapters

Introduction and Keith Giles' Podcasts

Discovering the Gospel of Thomas

Dating the Gospel of Thomas and its Relationship to the Q Document

The Discovery of the Gospel of Thomas

Keith Giles' Interest in the Gospel of Thomas

Hierarchy, Patriarchy, and Uniformity in the Early Christian Church

The Gospel of Thomas: Wisdom for a More Egalitarian Church

Realizing Our Connection: The Key to Loving and Caring for Others

The Shift from Secret Teachings to Hierarchical Structures

Links:

Buy the Book Here: https://shorturl.at/JG3b0

Read the Blog here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/

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66: Steve Harper: Christian Nationalism Isn't Christian

tomrundel@gmail.com (Steve Harper) — Wed, 19 Jun 2024 10:00:00 +0000

The importance of stripping away layers of interpretation to reveal the true essence of Christ.
The challenges of countering Christian nationalism and the significance of speaking the truth in love.
The concept of God as a being and the implications of this understanding.
The connection between spiritual formation and the inspiration behind the book 'Jesus Unpainted.' The nature of God is explored through the lens of personal relationship and the concept of 'I thou' rather than 'I it'.
Faith is validated through personal relationship with God, not just by accepting principles or statements of faith.
The LGBTQ community faces challenges within religious institutions, often experiencing a lack of genuine love and acceptance despite the language of inclusion.
Inclusive churches should not only welcome but also empower and involve all individuals, ensuring accessibility for everyone in the community.
Engaging with the local community and serving the parish is essential for meaningful church impact and relevance in the present age.
A gentle leader embodies self-care, community counsel, humility, and a commitment to serving the needs of others.
The concept of 'Little Lights' and 'Oboedire' provide platforms for daily meditation and deeper engagement with the author's writings and thoughts.

Links:

Connect to his Blog here: https://oboedire.wordpress.com/

Connect on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/little.lights.2024

Find books on Amazon here: https://shorturl.at/lGF9M

Chapters:

Introduction and Retirement Reflections

The Quilt and Its Story

Stripping Away Layers of Interpretation

Countering Christian Nationalism

Understanding God as a Being

Exploring the Nature of God and Faith

Challenges Faced by the LGBTQ Community in Religious Institutions

The Role of Inclusive and Accessible Churches

Engaging with the Local Community and Serving the Parish

Qualities of a Gentle Leader

Connecting with 'Little Lights' and 'Oboedire'

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65: Thomas Jay Oord: On Trial for Heresy

tomrundel@gmail.com (Thomas Jay Oord) — Wed, 12 Jun 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Advocacy for LGBTQ+ inclusion within the Church of the Nazarene is a complex and challenging endeavor, involving theological, social, and personal dimensions.
The conversation sheds light on the tensions and complexities within the church and society regarding LGBTQ+ issues, highlighting the need for thoughtful dialogue and understanding.
Thomas Jay Oord's journey of advocacy and the challenges he faces within his denomination provide insight into the evolving landscape of Christianity and the ongoing pursuit of inclusivity and social justice. The evolving understanding of LGBTQ+ issues has led to a shift in language and terminology, reflecting a broader and more inclusive perspective.
Personal experiences, including interactions with LGBTQ+ individuals, have played a significant role in shaping perspectives and fostering empathy and understanding.
The intersection of faith, science, and love is a complex and evolving space, with implications for theological discourse and social justice.
The challenges faced by the Church of Nazarene reflect broader issues within denominations, including the retention of youth and the impact of LGBTQ+ inclusivity on membership and identity.
Thomas Jay Oord's commitment to love, justice, and the pursuit of a more inclusive and empathetic faith community is evident throughout the conversation.

Buy his book here: https://shorturl.at/xYX5O

Check out his author page here: https://shorturl.at/1uDO4

Watch his YouTube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWoc_HfnC0

Chapters:

Denominational Charges and Consequences

Biblical Interpretation and Aesthetics

The Desire for Certainty and Authority

Evolving Language and Understanding of LGBTQ+ Issues

Personal Experiences and Empathy

Intersection of Faith, Science, and Love

The Question of Sin and Healthy Behavior

Love, Listening, and Humanizing the Issue

Challenges Faced by Denominations

Impact on Youth Retention and Future of Denominations

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64: Peter Rollins: Is God Dead? A Peek Into Radical Theology

tomrundel@gmail.com (Peter Rollins) — Wed, 5 Jun 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Key Take Aways:

Embrace the contradictions and dividedness that are inherent in being human.
Loss and death are fundamental aspects of existence that shape our experiences.
Grief should be acknowledged and processed as a natural part of life.
The death of God and the tearing of the temple curtain challenge the idea of liminality as a space where the finite and infinite meet.
Certain objects capture a sense of transcendence and the eternal within them, rather than behind them.
Christianity is radical in its belief in the death of God and the alienation within the divine.
Hope is the driving force that motivates us to work for something better in the present moment.
A better understanding of God in the modern world embraces self-division and ontological unknowing.
Living in the present moment and embracing self-division can lead to a more fulfilling and authentic experience of life.

Chapters:

-Introduction and Espresso

-The Northern Ireland Peace Process

-The Apocalyptic Perspective and Psychoanalysis

-The Redemptive Power of Embracing Loss and Death

-Critiquing the Notion of Liminality

-The Eternal Within Objects

-The Role of Hope and the Present Moment

-Embracing Self-Division and Ontological Unknowing

Links:

Find Peter on the Web: https://peterrollins.com/

Find Peter on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCweF6BScvFnbsymouI-znDA

Find Peter's Books on Amazon: https://rb.gy/yu7zje

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63: Grace Ji-Sun Kim: When God Became White

tomrundel@gmail.com (Grace Ji-Sun Kim) — Wed, 29 May 2024 10:00:00 +0000

Buy the book: https://www.ivpress.com/when-god-became-white

Listen to the pod: https://www.christiancentury.org/podcast/madang

Read her Blog: https://gracejisunkim.wordpress.com/

Subscribe Substack: https://gracek.substack.com/

Names hold deep significance in Korean culture, connecting individuals to their family and generations.
Understanding race as a social construct is essential in dismantling racism.
Whitewashing biblical stories perpetuates whiteness and reinforces white supremacy.
Theological creedal development should be reexamined to ensure it does not reinforce whiteness.
Solidarity and hope are necessary in the fight against racism and the decolonization of the Christian faith.

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62: Ben Katt: The Hero's Journey to Wholeness

tomrundel@gmail.com (Ben Katt) — Wed, 22 May 2024 12:09:54 +0000

Check out Ben's Website here: https://www.benjaminkatt.com/

Grab Ben's Book here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250910447?tag=macmillan-20

Leaving the familiar and falling into the unknown are two distinct stages of a transformative journey. Leaving the familiar involves recognizing the need for change and making a decisive break from the past, while falling into the unknown is the disorienting and challenging period of transition.

Returning home after a transformative journey can be difficult, as one may no longer fit into the social identity or conformity of their previous community. It may require setting new boundaries, rearranging relationships, and finding new soul friends who understand and support the journey.

Practices such as meditation, journaling, and spending time in nature can help center oneself and maintain a sense of stillness and internal reference amidst change. These practices can also foster self-discovery and a deeper connection with one's own soul and purpose.

The hero's journey, as seen in literature and movies, reflects the universal pattern of leaving the familiar, falling into the unknown, and returning home transformed. This journey is about discovering the core essential self and aligning with the flow of one's own life.

Ben Katt is a meditation teacher, hospice chaplain, and coach. He is the author of THE WAY HOME: Discovering the Hero’s Journey to Wholeness at Midlife. Ben teaches meditation in prisons and facilitates wellbeing experiences for companies and organizations. He is a certified advanced meditation teacher, holds a Master of Divinity degree, and is a former ordained minister. He lives in Milwaukee, WI with his wife and three children.

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61: Daniel Wolpert: Looking Inward, Living Outward

tomrundel@gmail.com (Daniel Wolpert) — Wed, 15 May 2024 10:00:00 +0000

You can buy the book here: https://upperroombooks.com/book/looking-inward-living-outward/

You can connect with Daniel here: https://www.facebook.com/daniel.wolpert.1

Contemplation frees individuals from habits and patterns that cause suffering and promotes compassion and care.
Contemplation is not just an individual practice, but also a communal one.
Contemplative psychology explores the concept of the human person as a bundle of habits and activities that create our sense of self and the world.
Contemplation can dissolve ego habits and projections, leading to more humane and loving relationships.
The integration of contemplation and action is essential for social transformation. The ego constructs a sense of self based on our sensory input, leading to patterns of confirmation bias and repetitive behavior.
Contemplation allows the mind to slow down and see the construction process of the ego, leading to a more open and expansive sense of self.
Powerful presence is not about charisma or ego-driven leadership, but about being fully present and caring for others without personal agendas.
Our society worships money and wealth, often distorting or ignoring teachings on generosity and economic justice.
Engaging in the spiritual life can bring about personal and societal transformation, even in the face of suffering and uncertainty.
Hope is not about clinging to a specific outcome, but about letting go of ego-driven expectations and trusting in the power of love and creativity.

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60: Brian McLaren: Life After Doom

tomrundel@gmail.com (Brian McLaren) — Wed, 8 May 2024 10:00:00 +0000

You can preorder the book here: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250893277/life-after-doom

You can find Brian's work here: https://brianmclaren.net/

Introduction
The Conflict Between Conservative Faith and Love for Nature
Facing a New Situation
The Impact of Climate Change and Rising Depression
The Importance of Spiritual Help
The Power of Naming Grief
The Complicated Nature of Hope
Superficial Hope vs. Deeper Hope
Rethinking Economic Paradigms
Living in Harmony with Nature
Creating Safe Landings and Imagining a Sustainable Future
Questioning History: European Intellectuals and Atrocities of War
The Role of Repentance
Finding New Ways of Being and Centers of Gravity
Recognizing and Dismantling Abusive Power Structures
Expressing Gratitude and Building Connections

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59: Zach Lambert: A Holistic Inclusive Bible Interpretation

tomrundel@gmail.com (Zach Lambert) — Wed, 1 May 2024 10:00:00 +0000

"Have you ever had a difficult time reading Paul’s Epistles? Ever felt like your questions were not part of the preapproved rhetoric of the groupthink? Zach felt the same way growing up in the Southern Baptist Church and lived at the edges of inclusion, fading further away from his faith. And then he read the Gospels and wondered why his church was not talking about this Jesus guy at all. Today’s conversation is about progressive Christianity and the inclusivity of the early church. We discuss the shift from a way of living and embodying the teachings of Jesus to an emphasis on intellectual agreement with a set of doctrines. We also explore the misinterpretation of Paul's letters and the need to understand them in their historical and cultural context. Zach shares his personal journey from growing up in a conservative evangelical church to finding a radical encounter with Jesus and reconstructing his faith. We highlight the importance of engaging with the life and teachings of Jesus and the need to move away from an insulated subculture of information. The conversation explores the historical link between evangelicalism and fundamentalism, highlighting how evangelicalism has always been fundamentalism with a new coat of paint. It discusses the rise of a nationalistic, state church in the United States and the need for a coalition of shared value churches that embody the work and way of Jesus. The conversation also delves into the formation and purpose of the Post-Evangelical Collective, a non-profit organization that aims to support and resource churches in the post-evangelical movement. The upcoming book by Zach W. Lambert focuses on providing a holistic understanding of Bible interpretation and offers healthier lenses for engaging with scripture.

Zach is the Lead Pastor and founder of Restore, a church that locks arms with the community to help bring restoration to people and neighborhoods in our city and around the world. They say, “We don’t have everything figured out, but we are on a journey of restoration through Jesus who loves people without prejudice or qualification. Restore is a place where you can be yourself, ask questions, and won’t be pressured to conform to any stereotype.” He is a native Austinite, and holds a Bachelors of Science in Communication and a Masters of Theology. Zach is also the co-founder of the Post Evangelical Collective--a group of pastors, artists, and leaders committed to full inclusion, holistic justice, deep and wide formation, a gracious posture, and the Way of Jesus. He has just signed a book contract with Brazos Press to author a book dedicated to help people wounded by harsh and legalistic church leaders rediscover the goodness and life-giving power of the Christian story.

You can connect with Zach’s church here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdqbo_vHkBQ7VWGh9o8TaWQ

You can connect with the Post Evangelicals here: www.PostEvangelicalCollective.org

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree

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58: Tom Rundel: Arriving at 95% Certainty is Good Enough

tomrundel@gmail.com (Liminal Living) — Wed, 24 Apr 2024 10:00:00 +0000

"Have you ever wondered how much of what you believe to be true is actually influenced by the quirks of your own mind? In this solo episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we delve into the fascinating realm of cognitive biases and their impact on our perception of reality. We use Brian McLaren’s list of 13 cognitive biases that cloud our judgment, revealing how they shape our understanding of truth and certainty. Through a philosophical lens, we examine the notion of absolute certainty, suggesting that acknowledging the presence of biases allows us to embrace uncertainty with an open hand.

The path to truth lies not in clinging to a rigid sense of certainty, but rather in maintaining a humble acknowledgment of our own limitations. Truth can be best grasped in a mindset where being 95% sure of something allows room for the remaining 5% of uncertainty. Embracing this openness enables us to navigate the complexities of truth with greater clarity and humility. Ultimately, we hope this is a compelling invitation for you to examine your own biases and embrace a more nuanced understanding of reality. Because, the journey towards truth begins with an open hand.

You can find Brian McLaren’s podcast on baises here: https://cac.org/podcasts/why-cant-we-see/

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57: Chad Bahl: To Hell with Eternal Conscious Torment

tomrundel@gmail.com (Chad Bahl, Dr Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 10:00:00 +0000

"Have you ever always hated the doctrine of eternal conscious torment but felt like it was too central to the faith to discard? Chad is the guy to talk to. Today we deconstruct the theology of ECT, discuss its origins, its evolution, and its future home in the proverbial lake of fire. We also discuss open and relational theology, evangelicalism, liminality, contemplation, and more views of the afterlife. It was an invigorating conversation that let me see that my academic mind can still come out and play every once in a while.

Chad Bahl is a DThM candidate at Northwind Theological Seminary, studying under Dr Thomas Jay Oord, where he specializes in the study of Open and Relational Theology. He also has hosted a podcast series: Deconstructing Hell. And is the author of God Unbound: An Evangelical Reconsiders Tradition in Search of Truth, author/editor of Deconstructing Hell: Open and Relational Responses to the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, and author of the upcoming Mornings with Schleirmacher.

You can order Chad’s books here: https://rb.gy/kvy57b

You can connect to Chad’s Work here: https://www.facebook.com/chad.bahl

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56: Ally Henny: I Won't Shut Up

tomrundel@gmail.com (Ally Henny) — Thu, 11 Apr 2024 15:04:38 +0000

"Have you ever wondered how one finds their voice in a world that often seeks to silence them? Today, we're diving deep into that question with author and advocate-minister Ally Henny, as we explore her journey of resilience, faith, and empowerment. Ally is the brilliant mind behind "I Won't Shut Up: Finding Your Voice When the World Tries to Silence You," a wonderful work that delves into the complexities of navigating societal pressures and finding one's voice amidst adversity. As the Vice President of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective, Ally is dedicated to empowering Black Christians toward liberation from racism, offering profound insights into the intersection of faith and social justice.

Throughout our conversation, we'll journey through Ally's experiences and perspectives, exploring the differences of black and white Christian culture in this country, the effect it has on politics, economics, society, and religion. Also, Ally offers invaluable insights into the tensions of Black freedom and the complexities of navigating racial dynamics within church institutional spaces. So, grab a cup of something caffeinated if your nervous system allows, and settle in and prepare to be enriched by the wisdom and passion of Ally Henny.

You can order Ally’s book here: rb.gy/3897bm

You can connect to Ally’s Work here: allyhenny.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:

02:59 Water damage sucks

05:50 Soil of Rural Missouri

10:52 Black Baptist upbringing

16:33 Black liturgy

23:00 Black politics

28:33 White church culture shock

35:13 Barak Obama is not the anti-christ

40:18 My mama’s struggles

47:25 A constellation of harms

55:06 Trauma constellations and their narratives

1:01:59 White individualism

1:08:08 The mythology of meritocracy

1:15:22 Once you see how the sausage is made…

1:21:21 Civilized?

1:28:07 Long obedience in the same direction

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55: Justin Lee: Coming out as Gay in the Southern Baptist Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Justin Lee) — Wed, 3 Apr 2024 10:00:06 +0000

Have you ever been made the “prayer request” of a community because your story didn’t match the triumphal testimony narrative? Justin grew up in the Southern Baptist Church as a conservative labeled by his high school peers as “God boy.” He was handing out tracts, evangelizing, and really good at obeying purity culture rules when it came to women. Then he realized that he was gay. He went on a long journey of wrestling with faith and identity, and we talk about his story today.

For over 25 years, Justin Lee has been a leading voice in navigating contentious issues with depth and empathy. As the author of "Talking Across the Divide: How to Communicate with People You Disagree With—and Maybe Even Change the World," his work has been adopted as a college textbook, guiding students through areas of disagreement. Beginning his journey in the 90s as a spokesperson for Bridges Across the Divide, Justin later founded a nonprofit dedicated to fostering dialogue within Christian communities on LGBTQ issues, gaining international recognition for his efforts. His bestselling book, "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," has solidified his reputation as a bridge-builder between progressives and conservatives. Justin's influence extends beyond his writing, as a co-host of three podcasts and a sought-after speaker featured in global media outlets. Now, he focuses on empowering individuals to apply strategic dialogue principles to diverse causes, maintaining a vibrant online presence through his YouTube channel and website at GeekyJustin.com.

You can preorder Justin’s book here: https://geekyjustin.com/books/torn-v2/
You can connect to Justin’s YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/geekyjustin

Time Stamps for the episode:
02:48 Boardgame Geekdom
08:04 Board games are like cosplay
11:54 Growing up Baptist
17:13 Coming out into a culture war
23:49 Slow realization, “I am gay.”
30:10 Making peace with new identity
35:03 Accepting that I can’t become straight
41:34 the danger of failed testimony to group narrative
48:43 Wrestling with the clobber passages
55:26 Asking the gay community to help with our theology
1:00:43 weaponizing truth claims
1:05:46 teaching the beginners
1:09:17 dialogue with those ideologically opposed to you

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54: Amy Fritz: Untangling Faith from the Evangelical Industrial Complex

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Amy Fritz) — Wed, 27 Mar 2024 10:00:11 +0000

Has your faith community become a breeding ground for spiritual abuse? Today I talk to Amy Fritz, host of the podcast "Untangled Faith," and we delve into the complexities of spiritual abuse within faith communities, drawing from her personal experiences and her husband's encounters while working for Dave Ramasey. Through occasional articles, Amy shares insights on faith, parenting, and simplifying life while fostering meaningful connections. In this insightful interview, she discusses pivotal moments in her faith journey, theological perspectives that reshaped her thinking, and sustaining practices that offer hope. Touching on topics like reorganized religion, abusive tactics, and the impact of the Evangelical industrial complex, Amy explores where the church could head in the next decade with honesty, humility, and openness. We also talk about failing religious leadership, and the transformation needed to address systemic issues within the church.

You can find Amy’s blog here: http://amyfritzwrites.com/
You can connect to Amy’s podcast here: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:
02:39 Network and Connections
06:56 Reorganized religion
11:25 The abuse of “convert and convince” tactics
16:38 Failing religious leaders
22:59 Allergic of pastoral “leadership” culture
29:19 Leadership corruption
33:22 The Evangelical industrial complex
38:03 untangling faith from Evangelical industrial complex
42:50 The apocalypse we find ourselves in
49:02 Asking: what can we own, and help make right?
54:30 Trying church again
59:13 Walmart-ization of western church
1:04:23 Cannibalizing mega church campuses

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53: Matthew Paul Turner: Finding Belonging after deconstruction

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Matthew Paul Turner) — Wed, 20 Mar 2024 10:00:29 +0000

Have you struggled with finding community and belonging after deconstruction? Many do, because you are in a liminal space of development, unsure of who you are, what you believe, and therefore, who your people are. Matthew Paul Turner, no relation to Tina, has been on a journey of belonging that he illustrates with a new Children’s book, You Will Always Belong. Matthew takes deep spiritual truths around the concept of identity and makes them accessible to children, and therefore, that inner child in you that desires to belong. The starting place: learn to belong to yourself so that you know what people it is safe to belong to.

Matthew Paul Turner has traveled the globe as a photographer, journalist and humanitarian documentarian. But he has truly made his mark in the world of children's literature. The #1 New York Times bestselling author brings an unmatched gift for rhyme and powerful storytelling to his inspiring books for young readers. Whether documenting the struggles of impoverished communities through his non-profit work or capturing the stunning visuals of National Geographic's "The Story of God" series with Morgan Freeman, Turner has a keen eye for narratives that reveal the full depth of the human experience. With deliberate messages of hope, empowerment and unlocking the resilience of the spirit, his children's books blend lyrical prose with lessons that will captivate young minds. From the realities he's witnessed globally to the imaginations he aims to spark, Turner is a versatile storyteller using his talents to craft transformative tales for all ages.

You can find Mattthew’s book here: https://rb.gy/95yd5a
You can connect to Matthew’s many other works here: https://matthewpaulturner.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:
Time Stamps for the episode:
02:46 Beard Talk
06:43 Teenage Drivers
11:43 Matthew the Author
17:19 Writing children’s books for adults
23:29 Hurricane Katrina and shifting politics
29:45 The primacy of compassion
33:56 Changing political camps
38:57 Church as priest of capitalism
44:12 The violence of converting and convicting
49:26 The American Church needs humbling
55:56 Finding belonging
1:01:03 You belong, you do.

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52: Trey Ferguson: Theologizin Bigger

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Trey Ferguson) — Wed, 13 Mar 2024 10:00:13 +0000

Have you ever felt like your faith tradition put you in a box, stifling your curiosity and ability to ask real questions? If so, then you'll want to hear this interview with author Trey Ferguson.
Trey's book "Theologizin Bigger" takes a refreshing look at how to "theologize" - to wrestle with faith and theology in an embodied way that embraces mystery, questioning, and diverse perspectives. In our conversation, Trey unpacked how the Western evangelical desire for a uniform, objective understanding of faith has alienated and dismissed voices from the margins. He made an insightful distinction between merely studying theology as an expert versus the active, effortful work of "theologizing." Trey also painted a powerful picture of Pentecost as the antidote to the Tower of Babel - where the miracle was the ability for truth to be expressed in many languages, not conformity to one standard. With wisdom and lyrical profundity, he issued a call to hold a non-polarized space that allows both questioners and doctrinal guardians to learn from each other's perspectives. Trey's work is an inspiring vision for how to engage faith with intellectual humility while reclaiming our God-given curiosity.

Trey Ferguson, is a pastor, podcaster, and public theologian who likes playing with words. Whether it be with tweets, videos, essays, sermonic presentations, Bible studies, podcasts, or speaking engagements, he’s always trying to provoke an image in a seeker with some combination of words. .

You can find Trey’s book here: https://rb.gy/s3tzca
You can connect to Trey’s many other works here: https://www.pastortrey05.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:
02:46 Sports Dad
08:23 Trey’s soil his life grew from
13:29 Faith Evolution
18:15 Theologizin breaks a sweat
22:35 Theology that works in real life
26:59 Shrinking churches with taller walls
33:09 Inerrancy as white supremacy
38:06 Spiritualizing our problems
43:03 A humble hermeneutic of love
48:29 Weaponizing our ideas
51:20 Pentecost diversity vs Evangelical uniformity
57:20 Prioritize participation not objectification

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51: Josh Patterson: Mysticism, Spiritual Evolution, Merton

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 6 Mar 2024 11:00:03 +0000

What happens when you get two deconstructed pastors in a zoom conversation together? A talk that spans from Thomas Merton’s mysticism, faith evolution, open and relational theology, Christian nationalism, and beer. Today’s conversation is the sharing of two deconstruction journeys and the evolution of faith that took place.

Today we talk with Josh Patterson, who runs the (Re)thinking Faith Podcast which explores Christianity and spirituality from a progressive, deconstructed perspective. Coming from an evangelical background, Patterson interviews guests from various faiths and backgrounds to have honest dialogues about questioning long-held Christian beliefs, the intersection of faith and reason, finding meaning outside rigid doctrines, and reconstructing one's spiritual worldview with integrity. Through storytelling, Bible analysis, and respectful discourse, the podcast aims to create a space for those rethinking, doubting, or evolving their faith to engage with the doubts, struggles, and spiritual evolutions many go through.

You can find the (Re)thinking Faith podcast here: rb.gy/ong4jw
Also Josh’s patreon is here: https://www.patreon.com/RethinkingFaith

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:54 Beer
09:46 Kicked out of church
14:02 Evolution of faith and practice
18:45 A mystical experience
23:11 Open and relational theology saved me
27:31 trusting our own experience
31:37 Thomas Merton saved me
37:58 How mystics saved the Church
43:19 Hope, optimism, cynicism and despair
48:53 F#!@, I’m still a Christian
52:43 Voices on the Margins
59:07 Christian nationalism

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50: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr Andrew M Davis) — Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:00:12 +0000

S3 E9: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life

If our theological framework was developed in medieval times under an earth centric understanding of the universe, how does that change with the discovery of near infinite galaxies out there? What does a Christian faith look like that is not earth centric or human centric? What does that do to the doctrine of the incarnation; God becoming human? If intelligent alien life made itself known to us, what theologies would go out the window?

Today we talk with Dr Andrew M. Davis, American process philosopher, theologian, and scholar of cosmological wonder. He is program director for the Center for Process Studies where he researches, writes, teaches, and organizes conferences on various aspects of process-relational thought. He has written many academic articles and books, and we talk about his book Metaphysics of Exo-Life: Toward a Constructive Whiteheadian Cosmotheology. But don’t let that title scare you away. This is one of the most fun conversations I have had. It felt like talking theology and philosophy with one of my favorite Science Fiction authors.

You can purchase Andrew’s new book here: https://rb.gy/2ou2fs
You can find Andrew’s work here: https://www.andrewmdavis.info/

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:54 Beer and Philosophy
07:32 Evangelical and academic roots
12:37 Turning points in faith
18:13 Expanding theology to fit the larger cosmos
22:36 Medieval theology in a modern context
26:55 Getting creative with contextualizing theology
31:35 What happens to certain theology if alien life is discovered?
37:44 Decentering our world / recentering our experience
43:03 The Church’s severe humbling through science
48:32 The world as verb instead of noun
54:37 Re-enchanting our modern world
1:01:34 incarnation and un-centering humanity from cosmology
1:08:45 Shift from instrumental value to Intrinsic
1:15:10 Spirituality as bridge between theory and practice
1:18:51 Conclusions

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49: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong side of Power

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr David Fitch) — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:00:12 +0000

S3 E8: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong Side of Power

What happens when the church uses the power of the world to accomplish the purposes of God? You get the Church on the wrong side of power, with a reckoning that needs to take place. Today I talk with David Fitch about his new book, Reckoning with Power, Why the Church Fails when it’s on the Wrong Side of Power. In this work he describes three kinds of power the world uses, and contrasts it with the kind of power that God has. Indeed this is a reckoning of power moment, and Fitch’s book is a wonderful guide. Trigger warning, while our conversation spans theology, politics, culture, and ecclesiology, and made my brain explode a few times, we do talk about modern political figures and events openly.

Fitch has been a pastor for 30 years, planting 9 churches, he is the Chair of Evangelical Theology at Northern Seminary Chicago, IL where he runs a few of their doctoral and masters programs. He is the author of many books, a writer for Missio Alliance, a blogger, and a cohost of the Theology on Mission podcast.

You can purchase Fitch’s new book here: https://rb.gy/3k9zlc
You can find Fitch’s podcast here: https://rb.gy/9ycm3m
You can subscribe to Fitch’s substack here: https://davidfitch.substack.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:
02:31 Call me Fitch
08:17 My second conversion
15:12 A different kind of power
20:45 4 kinds of power
26:16 Using worldly power for God’s purposes
29:38 The temptation of authoritarian leaders
34:41 Why January 6th was not a wake up call
40:40 Sequestering God’s power to the inner life
45:41 Promised land nationalism vs Acts ecclesiology
51:29 When worldly power mixes with theology
57:07 Politics and the pulpit
1:01:55 Weaponized ideas
1:06:36 Conclusions

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48: Jason and Lori Adams-Brown: Interpreting Preda-Pastors Controlling Narratives

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Jason Adams-Brown, Lori Adams-Brown) — Wed, 14 Feb 2024 11:00:01 +0000

How can you identify the narratives used by high control pastors to maintain control? In this episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we talk with Jason and Lori Adams-Brown. With extensive backgrounds in intercultural studies, trauma care, and missionary work, Jason and Lori offer invaluable insights into the insidious nature of spiritual abuse within religious communities. Drawing from their own experiences of navigating abusive environments, they shed light on the subtle ways in which abusive leaders manipulate narratives to maintain power and control.

Through candid conversation, Jason and Lori provide interpretations of common phrases used to gaslight congregants and shield abusive pastors from accountability. From "We are praying for the pastor" to "We need to change our judgemental thinking," they provide a Google translate version of the gaslighting Christian language, enabling listeners to recognize the reality behind the rhetoric.

Moreover, the episode explores the dynamics of faith, career, and personal growth, offering a beacon of hope amidst the darkness. As Jason and Lori share their journey of speaking out against pastoral abuse and advocating for victims, they invite listeners to join them in fostering genuine inclusion, justice, and belonging within religious communities. Tune in to discover how to connect with their work and find hope in a world marred by spiritual exploitation.

You can find Lori’s podcast here: https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.com/
You can contact Jason here: jasonadamsbrown73 (at) gmail (dot) com

Time Stamps for the episode:
05:50 Mojitos and Pictionary
10:05 Southern Baptist Roots
13:50 The Conservative Resurgence
18:14 Disillusionment sets in (Jason)
23:56 Being a woman in the SBC
30:51 Preda-pastors and the narratives they weave
36:24 Gaslighting the community
40:34 “We are praying for the pastor”
46:11 “There are people out to get him”
51:54 “They are trying to build their career”
57:15 Protecting metrics
1:00:50 “Dont judge, who hasn’t sinned?”
1:06:11 One way grace, up to the leader
1:10:22 What gives Lori hope
1:15:07 What gives Jason hope
1:17:36 Conclusions

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree

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47: Dr Jonathan Foster: Liminal Space of Grief After You Lose a Child

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Jonathan Foster) — Wed, 7 Feb 2024 11:00:01 +0000

9 years ago, Jonathan watched from his picture window as a law enforcement officer drove up his driveway to give him the devastating news that his 20 year old daughter was killed in a car crash. His family has been in the Liminal space of grief ever since. He wrote a book about his grief entitled, indigo, the color of grief. This work guides our discussion today. And yes, I cried.

Dr Jonathan Foster is a writer at heart. He writes books, podcasts, and blog posts. He is an author of 5 books, and he helps other authors make books at SacraSagePress. He is involved with the open table network, which provides ordination credentials to progressive religious leaders. And he loves hiking in the Rocky Mountains.

You can find Jonathan’s podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jonathan-foster/id1479338607
You can find Jonathan’s work here: www.jonathanfosteronline.com
Please go buy Jonathan’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/indigo-color-Jonathan-J-Foster/dp/1737664968

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:30 Thin spaces as Liminal spaces
07:15 Early faith roots run deep
11:18 Wandering in Liminal spaces
17:07 The potency of poetry in liminal spaces
20:39 Encountering cliche after tragedy
23:48 Somatically processing grief
29:23 What grief feels like
34:59 Grief strips you down to simplicity
39:11 Offering solutions vs solidarity
44:35 Your presence becomes a threat to theology
48:58 Hope and Optimism, Cynicism and Faith
54:46 God does not exist, God insists
59:03 A new way of thinking about God is needed
1:04:22 Beauty as Defiance
1:08:13 Conclusion

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46: Dr Tim Carson: This is Your Brain on Liminality

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr Tim Carson) — Wed, 31 Jan 2024 11:00:22 +0000

Has deconstruction left you feeling isolated, anxious, and alone? Dr Tim Carson and I talk about the liminality of deconstruction, and how we are in a large collective “we” space of deconstruction, and the desperate need for liminal guides today. We also talk about the neurology of liminality and why it is so transformative.

Timothy Carson is the curator of The Liminality Project. And has done Doctoral research and dissertation on Liminality. Tim is also the author of Liminal Reality and Transformational Power (2016), editor of the anthology Neither Here nor There: The Many Voices of Liminality (2019), co-author of Crossing Thresholds: A Practical Theology of Liminality (2021), editor of the anthology The Liminal Loop: Astonishing Stories of Discovery and Hope (2022), and editor of Leaning into the Liminal: A Guide for Counselors and Companions (2024). Tim continues to write, edit, blog, facilitate groups and seminars focused on liminality, and work with people making life’s great passages. Tim teaches a variety of liminality courses in the Honors College of the University of Missouri and is a TEDx speaker, presenting on themes of liminality.

You can find Tim’s work here: https://www.theliminalityproject.org/
You can view Tim’s TEDx talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLaTOyVBdME

Time Stamps for the episode:
02:43 The Tim and Tom Show
06:15 Liminal conversations around the world
10:33 Liminality and Pastoring
16:04 Liminality in Academia
19:21 Liminality in the Church
23:58 This is your brain on Liminality
29:12 Liminal competency in our leaders
34:48 Liminal journey to rebirth the “me” and “we”
39:45 COVID 19 and collective Liminality
44:43 Training Liminal guides in Ukraine
50:23 Liminal space of deconstruction
56:05 Conclusions

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45: Tom Rundel: Why I Left Evangelicalism

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 24 Jan 2024 11:00:16 +0000

I get personal today on why I left the Evangelical stream of the faith, but also on why I am still a Christian and a pastor. We explore, historically, what an evangelical is, how fundamentalism took over and partnered itself as a political machine. So I share some of my points of departure, and then go on to share some points of consent, on why I am still in the Christian faith. I also share my vision for something different as a pastor and what I am up to in my neigborhood.

Time Stamps for this episode:
Time Stamps for the episode:
03:09 A Liminal Age
06:38 4 Characteristics of Evangelicals: 1. Biblicism
11:50 4 Characteristics: 2. Crucicentrism 3. Conversionism
16:55 4 Characteristics: 4. Activism
19:42 The Fundamentalist Shift
24:48 5 Pillars of Fundies: Inerrancy, Virgin Birth, Atonement
29:53 5 Pillars of Fundies: Bodily Resurrection, Historic Miracles
35:26 The Conservative Resurgence of the SBC
40:04 Points of Departure: Inerrancy = authoritarianism
45:32 Points of Departure: Evangelism = Theological Colonialism
49:51 Points of Departure: Hell is the central dogma
53:09 Points of Consent: Why I’m still Christian
58:51 Making Christianity huma again
1:03:09 Conclusions

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44: Jason Raitz: Trying to Stay in Church, Post-pastorate

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Jason Raitz) — Wed, 17 Jan 2024 11:00:15 +0000

When a pastor has experienced both the beauty of a spiritual community, and the hurt and abuse of demands for excellence for nearly 26 years, it is a confusing place to occupy. Jason Raitz and I have been friends for nearly 30 years, walking with each other through the highs and lows of our lives. We have landed in very different places; geographically, socially, theologically. But our lives continue to intersect and enrich each other. Today we have an honest conversation about the liminal space he is in, wondering what role the church plays in his life, and the world. We leave it unresolved, because that is liminal space, and that is reality for most of life.

You can connect with Jason’s work here: https://www.speakwithpeople.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:10 30 years of friendship
06:42 My “conversion” story, and Jason’s role in it
11:18 A decision to be a pastor, at age 20
15:34 First call to a church, at 20 years old
20:53 Crashing the Ego in a field
25:55 The Pressure of Excellence
30:48 Generosity and Abuse from the same source
36:18 Leaving Willow Creek to plant a church
41:46 Driving the hype train off the cliff
46:33 Leaving the pastorate to start a business
51:20 Deconstructing ecclesially
56:45 Finding a new identity post pastorate
1:02:00 Conclusions

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43: Dr Emily Smith: Your Friendly Neighborhood Epidemiologist

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr Emily Smith) — Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:00:09 +0000

Dr Emily Smith is a PhD epidemiologist whose work has been featured in TIME Magazine, Christianity Today, the Washington Post, and NPR. Dr Emily’s profession as an epidemiologist was a natural way to express her Christian values for loving her neighbor. So when the pandemic hit, she was in a unique spot to rally the church together to love their neighbor as the Good Samaritan taught, or so she thought. Expressing her expertise online made her a target, even from her own church members, whom her husband was pastor of. After threats to her children were made, she broke down with debilitating and chronic migraines for 15 months, spending 6 months in bed. When she was well enough, she wrote of her experiences in a published book entitled, The Science of the Good Samaritan. We have an honest conversation about her journey through this time, and her book.

You can connect with Dr Emily’s work at https://emilysmith.substack.com
You can purchase her book at https://rb.gy/94v8jh

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:08 Science, Astronomy, and Liminal Space
06:25 Epidemiology and Equity
11:02 Searching for the story behind the data
15:24 White collar violence
20:55 Systemic Racism’s historical effect
25:59 Faith over fear… what it really points to
31:03 Speaking out and being thirst into liminal space
36:23 The Evangelical machine
41:28 Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
45:38 Healing in the dirt in the garden
51:05 Thinking globally
56:37 Conclusions

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42: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Alana Levandoski) — Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:00:19 +0000

S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home

Welcome to season 3 of the Liminal Living podcast. And today we talk with spiritual teacher, artist, and musician, Alana Levandoski. Alana has gone on pilgrimages and come back to alchemize her experiences into music. Her perspective is large and her wisdom is deep. On today’s episode we talk about the importance of longing within the human soul, and how we embody that longing. Our conversation is broad and deep so buckle up.

You can connect with Alana’s work at alanalevandoski.com

Time Stamps for the episode:
02:34 Pilgrimage and place
07:21 Finding and reclaiming your roots
12:41 Find your people
18:45 Pilgrimage through time in the place you stand
23:13 Healing your soul is changing the world
28:01 Developing a “Christ Consciousness”
33:18 You can’t think your way out of trauma
37:38 A passing age gives birth to another
41:19 Feminine wisdom birth’s Christ into the world
46:49 Escaping the cerebral age without destroying it
49:47 Theologian as Artist
54:00 Leaving the music industry for mysticism
59:06 Learning from Thomas Merton and James Finley
59:06 Do the work
1:09:08 Conclusions

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41: SEASON 2 FINALE!!

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:00:00 +0000

We made it to the end of the year! So to celebrate I revisited our top three most downloaded episodes*, as well as read some of your comments on your favorite moments. Thank you for listening and contributing to the conversation. Here is to a great season 3!

*after recording this, Dr Chris Green’s episode released and became the #1 downloaded episode of the season.

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:00 Intro
07:55 #3 most downloaded: Kenneth Tanner
14:40 #2 most downloaded: Rob Bell
21:25 #1 most downloaded: Matt Tebbe
27:46 Joe: Don’t Spiritualize Your Problems
35:20 Terri: Consolation and Desolation
41:43 Collette: Universal Redemption
46:27 Abigail: Kate’s Courage
52:14 Scott: Liminal seasons of new life
58:03 Dave: “The Bible Says”
1:03:51 Rosie: Frames and Reality
1:10:35 David: Rob Bell’s laugh
1:14:13 Conclusion

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40: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr Chris EW Green) — Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:00:10 +0000

S2 E35: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions

Too often theology becomes more about trophy hunting for the “right” answers in order to impress and display. But trophies are dead things. Dr. Chris Green and I talk about the role of art and imagination in the theological process of finding living questions, which are small answers that lead to more questions and explorations.

Dr. Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University, the Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony, and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, articles, and reviews, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology. He and his wife, Julie, live in Cleveland, TN with their sons Clive and Emery, and their Weimaraner, Auggie. Their oldest, Zoë, is currently attending the University of Oklahoma.

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:35 Intro
04:19 Theology and Art
08:25 Where does art come from?
13:46 What does art do?
18:19 Art involves us in the truth
23:46 Art opens us up to truth
28:29 Imagination and Faith
33:41 Sweaty Pentecostalism
38:29 Knowing more about demons than about God
44:31 Bonhoeffer
49:30 A true place to belong
55:22 Incarnation shows us what God is like
1:02:13 Conclusion

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39: Kenneth Tanner: God Becomes Human in Christ... for real.

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Kenneth Tanner) — Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:00:27 +0000

God became a human being, the incarnation, a central dogma of the Christian tradition that I was not taught in my Evangelical tradition. Well it was a messy necessity for Chgrist to be human so that the “real” dogma of substitutionary atonement was valid. Father Kenny and I dive into this concept in all its beauty today on what it means that God became human.

Father Kenneth Tanner is pastor of Holy Redeemer in Rochester Hills Michigan, writer at Sojourners, Patheos, and Substack, author of an upcoming book called Vulnerable God: Retrieving the Wonder of God-With-Us in Our Humanity, teacher, and wonderful human being.

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:31 Intro
03:40 Handing me mystery instead of answers
08:30 Mystery leads to awe and wonder
12:40 A long painful call into ministry
17:48 Grief and anxiety in ministry
22:05 The soil Father Kenny grew out of
25:41 Two responses to the Challenger tragedy
29:42 The expansive idea of God becoming human
34:39 Incarnation IS revelation of God
40:09 God’s humility in Christ is not an anomaly
45:11 The role of Mary in the Incarnation
51:49 God has a mother
57:18 Christ’s humanity is just like our humanity
1:03:32 Reading our fallenness back into God
1:07:59 Vulnerable God, the Book
1:12:43 Conclusion

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38: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that's good news

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Thomas Jay Oord) — Wed, 6 Dec 2023 11:00:07 +0000

S2 E34: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that is Good news.

“Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even he can’t eat it?” -Homer Simpson. All joking aside, today I talk to Dr Thomas Jay Oord about his new book, the Death of Omnipotence, the Birth of Amipotence. This book provides a critique of the classic doctrine of Omnipotence, and why it is good news that God is NOT all powerful.

Dr Oord is an award-winning author, and he has written or edited more than thirty books.
Oord directs a doctoral program at Northwind Theological Seminary and the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He won the Outstanding Faculty Award twelve times as a full-time professor He also speaks at institutions across the globe. Most recently at Theology Beer Camp with Tripp Fuller. He also runs the Ort Shorts podcast and has been featured on over 50 podcasts. Dr. Oord is known for his contributions to open and relational theology, science and religion, and freedom and relationships for transformation. He and his wife, Cheryl, have three daughters, a son-in-law, and two grandchildren.

You can find his work at www.thomasjayoord.com

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:18 Theology and Photography
08:55 From faith to Atheism and back to faith
14:47 The problem with “Apologetics”
19:42 Needing a modern moral framework
22:19 Omnipotent God OR Loving God
27:53 The Death of Omnipotence
34:01 Play the mystery card
38:06 Omnipotence vs Amipotence
42:53 God is all Loving with power, not All powerful with love
47:06 Abuses of Omnipotence
52:51 Authority vs Power
58:02 Pet Peeves and Hope
1:02:47 Conclusions

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37: Tom Rundel: Holding Conviction Confidently and Non-violently

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 29 Nov 2023 11:00:26 +0000

Have you ever learned a new perspective, started a new diet, or become really religious, and then get on a mission to convert everyone in your path to this new thing… only to leave it behind at some point and wonder what’s real? Me too. It leaves you feeling guilty for being “wrong” or feeling shamed for convincing so many people of something you are not so sure of anymore. What do we do with this part of our history, and how can we hold our current convictions with both confidence and humility?

In this episode I share some thoughts I have learned along the way of having conversations with wonderful folks on this podcast. I also offer some perspective on passages of scripture like the widow’s two mites, and the parable of the talents.

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:43 Mental Furniture
05:45 Convert, Convince, Convict
11:14 Frames and how we hold them
16:13 Learning from perspectives not my own
21:52 Naming your frames to hold them non-violently
27:48 The Parable of the Talents
33:33 Parable of the Whistleblower
39:36 Interpreting scripture through our frame
44:12 Creating subcultures and naming it reality
49:38 Christian Nationalism
53:52 Hope is not an emotion, but an imagination
57:02 Conclusions

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36: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Scot McKnight) — Wed, 22 Nov 2023 11:00:03 +0000

S2 E32: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism

Today I talk with Scot McKnight, he's the professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, a history buff of early Christianity, a theology nerd, and a prolific author of almost 40 published books and academic articles. He's delved deep into topics like the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and how to live the Christian life. McKnight is ordained in the Anglican tradition and is theological advisor to Todd Hunter.

Today we explore his most recent book, Revelation for the Rest of Us. We delve into his history in fundamentalism, conversion to Anglicanism, theological explorations, the Book of Revelation, political leanings, and more. It is a conversation to stretch your mind beyond the borders of standard American theology of the “End Times.”

You can find Scot’s blog here: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/
You can find Scot’s books here: https://rb.gy/xl32he

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:32 Introductions
07:14 Roots and Soil Scot grew up in
11:55 Early Fundamentalist Faith
16:45 Shifting to Anglicanism
20:58 Pause for Definition of terms
22:59 Rapture Trauma
27:58 Why this Book and Why now?
34:18 Speculative vs Imaginative readings of Revelation
40:11 Christian Nationalism steeped in Dispensationalism
46:44 Dissident Disciples or MAGA followers
49:46 Finding Hope in today’s world
54:19 Conclusions

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35: Rob Bell: Life, Death, and a Little Bit of Everything

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Rob Bell) — Wed, 15 Nov 2023 13:06:28 +0000

Today on the podcast I have the wonderful privilege of talking with Rob Bell about his new book, Where'd You Park Your Spaceship? We meander in conversation from topics like grief, surfing, death, life, resurrection, hope, dreams, and as the title suggests, a little bit of everything.

You can find Rob's work here: www.Robbell.com

Time Stamps for this episode:
1:58 Introductions
5:38 Graduating into new seasons of life
10:08 Saying "yes" to life and befriending death
16:23 Intellectual frames don't define reality
22:32 The accumulation of un-grieved grief
27:57 Learning to be human again through grief
34:14 Accepting mortality brings resurrection
41:27 Identity working itself out in writing
47:55 Two halves of Life in narrative
53:59 Heaven and Hell and Reality
1:00:15 En-fleshing ideas in humanity
1:06:38 "The News" and finding hope
1:12:38 We create the world we inhabit, we can uncreate it
1:18:04 Conclusion

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34: Keith Giles: Deconstruction is the Revival you Prayed For

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Keith Giles) — Wed, 8 Nov 2023 11:00:06 +0000

Today on the podcast I talk with prolific author and chief boat rocker, Keith Giles. We talk about his upbringing in the a fundamentalist Baptist Church, and his journey through deconstruction.

You can find Keith's writings
here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/
and here: https://www.bk2sq1.com/
and here: https://rb.gy/9yjeod

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33: Deb Gregory: Ignatian Spirituality, Disability in the Church, Living Liminally

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Deb Gregory) — Wed, 1 Nov 2023 10:00:04 +0000

What happens when the church space you helped create and cultivate is not hospitable and inclusive of those in your own family with neurodivergent minds? Deb Gregory shares her story of traversing liminal spaces from her childhood into her professional career and how Ignatian spiritual practices have helped “moor” her to her faith and family.

Deb is a spiritual director, former documentary filmmaker and church planter, and the founder of Flourish Contemplative Center. She is also the producer and host of the Betwixt Podcast. Having spent much of her life in transit, Deb enjoys the slow growth of roots with her family in Ormond Beach, FL.

Where she enjoys listening with you: Flourish Spiritual Direction
Where you can enjoy listening with her: Betwixt Podcast

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:48 Introductions
02:50 What is Liminal Space Anyways?
06:37 Living in two worlds, belonging to neither
11:35 Where is home?
14:25 Faith roots, paradoxes, and contradictions
18:49 Lack of common spaces to hold paradox
22:08 Deconstruction as expected season of faith
27:17 Liminal seasons built into the liturgical calendar
32:39 Making space for folks in liminality
38:47 Neurodiversity and Disability in the church
44:26 Ignatius taking a cannonball to the knee
50:11 Ignatian spirituality 101
55:53 Ignatian practices
1:01:19 Pastors in liminal seasons
1:05:42 Inscape: the particular beauty of this moment
1:09:37 Conclusions

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32: Kate: When a Pastor/Husband is a Predator: Trauma, abuse, and Healing

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Kate) — Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:34:37 +0000

A pastor who had 12 victims over the course of 20 years is found out. The patriarchal leadership of the church wants to sweep it all under the rug quickly. But *Kate, who happens to be married to this pastor, says “No!” She is not allowed to lead in this culture in spite of being the greatest leader in the room with the best plan, so she decides to take matters into her own hands. This is her story of trauma, tragedy, reconciliation, and healing.

*Kate is not her real name, but a pseudonym to protect her from ongoing abusive actions of former church leaders and former husband.

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:48 Introductions
02:30 Breckie in Australia with a Cuppa
03:58 Protecting her Anonymity
06:29 Inoculation makes you blind to abuse
11:14 Rebuilding the soul after recognizing abuse
15:36 The Truth comes out
20:32 Seeking to hold him accountable
25:48 Abusive patriarchy favors the abusive man
30:14 Reconciliation begins… but not with him
34:49 Rebuilding a life
37:17 Learning self-care and boundaries after helping everyone else
41:59 The Healing journey begins
47:08 “Gospeling the Heart”
50:03 “The Father Heart of God”
54:26 Somatic Bodily Practices for Healing
57:59 Healing Non-sexual touch
1:02:34 Healing of song, sound, and puppies
1:05:52 You cannot think your way into trauma healing
1:08:14 Conclusions

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31: Tom Rundel: The Bible Says... Why I don't say that anymore

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 22:56:18 +0000

Have you ever had someone use the phrase, “Well, the Bible says…” to correct you? But then they dismiss other things the Bible says with a “yeah, but…” Who we offer our “yeah but” comments to and who we hard line with “the Bible says” reveals more about the one using the phrase than it does the Bible.
Today I talk about why I no longer use the phrase, “The Bible says…” and how it is often a signal of a theology that is static, exclusive, elitist, or abusive. This summarizes some of the things I learned from the last 4 interviews I did. To get there we meander through the historical narrative flow of the old and new testaments. So if you have ever struggled to make sense of what the Bible is saying, and why, it might help to understand the story.
Time Stamps for the Episode:
Time Stamps for the episode:
00:40 Introductions
01:54 I Don’t say, “The Bible Says” anymore
05:38 The Tabernacle Narrative
09:31 Kings and Temples Narrative
12:19 Babylon, Persia, and Greece! Oh My!
16:29 Rome, Herod, and Second Temple
19:41 It’s the end of the world as we know it
22:27 Theology: Our static Temple
27:54 Theology: our elitist and and exclusive Temple
33:02 Theology: our abusive Temple
34:56 LGBTQ+ texts vs Greed, Power, Corruption texts
37:42 Abusive Church Growth Tactics
43:30 The Bible says, says more about you than the Bible
46:52 Tables instead of Temples
52:44 Conclusions

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30: Kathy Khang: Finding a Home: Hospitality, Immigration, and Power in the Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Kathy Khang) — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:00:08 +0000

Who gets to decide the modern dogmas of who is in and who is out? Probably not the people Jesus would hang around with, marginalized communities. I have an honest and beautiful conversation with author Kathy Khang today about her experience as a Christian in America who immigrated from Korea. And she highlights things from that perspective that I had a hard time seeing from my perspective.

Our guest today is Kathy Khang, a mother of three, wife of one, and a passionate advocate for embracing the complexities of identity, spirituality, and social justice. Kathy's story is one of transformation and empowerment, rooted in her love for Jesus and a deep appreciation for the simple joys of life, like yoga, nail polish, lipstick, and the bond she shares with her girlfriends.

Kathy's journey as a writer, speaker, coffee enthusiast, and even a yoga teacher has taken her from the pages of childhood diaries to newsrooms and co-authored books. Her next book co-authored with Matt Mikalatos is called Loving Disagreement which is about how to sustain community in a polarized society. It landed on Englewood Book Review’s list of most anticipated books of 2023. She is also a co-host of The Fascinating Podcast which is on season 11 now.

With over two decades of experience in parachurch ministry, working with college students and training leaders, Kathy has been a force for change, encouraging others to find and use their voices to bring about positive transformation. Her recent book, "Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up," inspires everyone to embrace their influence and work toward creating a more just and compassionate world. So, join us today as we dive deep into Kathy Khang's inspiring journey of using one's voice to shape a better future.

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:40 Introductions
03:52 Good Coffee
09:09 Spiritual Roots in the Korean Church in Chicago
13:44 Renting church space and false hospitality
18:31 Rethinking Hospitality as the Church
21:58 Loving Disagreement what it is and is NOT
27:04 Love is not nice
32:01 Toxic Positivity
36:45 The Moving Goalposts of expectation
41:47 False apostolic authority used to create exclusive dogma
44:12 What loving your enemy can look like
48:31 Conclusions

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29: Tom Rundel: Does God have a Gender, Karma, and more Science talk

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:08:18 +0000

Does God have a Gender? Is Karma real? What did the Bible say about Dinosaurs? And other fun questions in this ask me anything episode where I take on your theological questions:

Scott: According to Christianity, the only way is through Jesus. According to another religion, the only way is through their belief system. How can we all be right? Does God give many paths that lead to him?
Lance: How do we know which religion is right? And if Christianity is it, how do we know which version/interpretation is right?
Rosey: If God created humans in his image, male and female, what does that actually mean? Is God not genderless?
Wendi: What’s the deal with karma and the Christian faith?
Nic: did the Creator create us individually or broad stroke? What level of detail went into His design?
Lance: How does the Bible coexist with science?

Time Stamps for the episode:
00:49 Introductions
05:48 The Benedictine Monk who taught me to meditate
11:10 Are there many paths to God?
16:23 Labels on something vs Essence of something
21:26 Love is the point and humility is the foundation
23:30 How do we know which religion is right?
28:42 Is God a man?
33:37 God as “the Father”
39:06 God as “the Mother”
44:43 Gender and the Incarnation
47:56 Karma and Buddhism
53:36 Karma’s 4 Noble Truths and 8 fold Path
57:33 Karma and Christianity
1:01:32 How does God “make” us and the world?
1:05:51 Are Dinosaurs in the Bible?
1:10:13 Conclusions

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28: Matt Tebbe: Money, Power, and Abuse in the Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Matt Tebbe) — Wed, 27 Sep 2023 17:22:40 +0000

Why have we spiritualized so much of Jesus’ teaching on poverty, money, and forgiveness? It is the only way we could make sense of his teachings while wearing the insulation that power provides us. But what does Christ say about money and power? How have we harnessed what Jesus calls the god of mammon into our methodologies of modern church growth tactics?

Today I talk with Matt Tebbe, an expert voice in the areas concerning mammon, which is the Bible’s word for the worship of the economy, colonial empire, authoritarian abuse, and patriarchy. Matt says hard things, but good things. His voice is honest and succinct. Matt Tebbe. holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, has been featured in the pages of Leadership Journal and Shattered Magazine. Matt's insights are also featured in the book 'What Pastors Wish Their Congregations Knew,' authored by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee. He's also been a prominent voice in thought-provoking platforms such as Missio Alliance and The V3 Movement. Matt's collaborative spirit shines through his co-authorship of 'Having the Mind of Christ' alongside Ben Sternke which won the IVP Reader's Choice Award.

Matt is more than just a writer and thinker. He's a practitioner of transformational leadership as the co-founder of Gravity Leadership, and he serves as the co-rector of an Anglican church plant known as 'The Table,' nestled in the northeast suburbs of Indianapolis. Join us today as we dive into Matt's journey and how he balances it all with his life alongside his wife Sharon and their children, Deacon and Celeste.

To see Matt’s work, please visit his website: https://www.thetableindy.org/, https://gravityleadership.com/, https://substack.com/@matttebbe,

Time Stamps for the episode:

00:52 Introductions
03:58 Climbing Mt. Whitney
08:56 Facing Internal Demons on the Mountain
14:04 Spiritual Roots in Catholicism
18:33 Grace in Community & Abuse on Church Staff
23:57 Abusive Leadership Embraces Power and Causes Trauma
30:18 Using Your Voice with Clarity and Humility
34:36 Spiritualizing the Poor is a Hermeneutic Mistake
40:17 The God of Mammon, Power, Money, and Economy
46:45 What “Love of Money” Actually Looks Like
51:47 Exposing Undercover Idolatry
57:08 Mammon’s Weapon is Fear of Death
1:00:50 What Really Causes Inflation
1:06:27 Gatekeepers of the Bible Don’t Actually Like the Bible
1:13:14 Mammon “Works” and Why We Can’t See It.
1:18:40 How to Love our Neighbor
1:21:11 Conclusions

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27: Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, Indigenous Spirituality and De-Colonizing Christianity

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley) — Wed, 20 Sep 2023 21:09:46 +0000

What if the severe dogmatic cruelty of our modern expression of faith is an add on of Western Colonialism? What would happen if you started to pull on the thread of colonialism in your faith. What would come out? What would remain? Today I talk with Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, an expert voice in the areas concerning spirituality, earth-care, racial and ethnic identity, diversity, peace, social justice, eco-justice, interreligious dialogue, Indigenous studies, agriculture, and spirituality. Randy is also co-founder and Program Director of the George Fox Master of Arts Intercultural Studies degree, the Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds. Author of 9 books, including An Indigenous theology and the Western Worldview, and host of the Peacing it all together podcast. He is a member of the Cherokee nation, and considers himself an indigenous person who follows Christ. We talk about his experiences as an indigenous person within the western church.To see Randy’s work, please visit his website: www.Randywoodley.com | www.Eloheh.org | www.elohehseeds.com

Time Stamps for the episode:

00:43 Introductions
09:06 Cherokee roots
13:30 My Oppressive Missionary Colonizer Years
19:02 Colonialism woven into the Christian faith
22:37 The Violence of Christian Supremacy
28:06 Conservative politics picks up the torch of colonialism
31:45 The Problem of Disembodied Theology
36:55 Shalom and the Failed Western Experiment
42:20 Decolonizing the Faith
47:16 Colonial Theology that needs to Go: Hell, Exclusivity, and Original Sin
51:19 The Practice of Vulnerable Conversation
53:40 Conclusions

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26: Anthony Smith: Faith, Race, and Politics

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Anthony Smith) — Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:57:00 +0000

Today I talk with Faith rooted organizer, Anthony Smith. Anthony headed up the removal and relocation of a Confederate Statue in his city of Salisbury, North Carolina. We talk about his faith, his work, for the poor and marginalized of his city from his position as a pastor and city council member. He is a man rooted in place and dedicated to seeing the Kingdom of God come about in his neighborhood.

Time Stamps for the episode:

00:49 Introductions
02:39 Faith Rooted Organizer
07:04 Anthony vs Confederate Statue
11:56 An Ecumenical Exorcism of White Nationalism and Racism
17:10 An Apocalyptic moment and call
22:24 Christians call to apocalyptic action
27:15 Hyper individualism and its damage on society
33:33 The Gospel and White Jesus made an atheist
38:37 The Gospel evolve to meet us
43:50 White Christian Nationalism is a form of bad Atheism
47:53 Christianity as ideology for the nation state is bad news
52:15 A Heart attack and an existential crisis
57:35 The Sound of the Genuine
1:02:22 Don’t live apologetically
1:07:57 Pay attention and find purpose
1:13:27 Conclusions

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25: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything Bible Deconstruction

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 6 Sep 2023 18:23:04 +0000

S2 E21: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything: Bible Deconstruction

I solo riff on today’s pod and take on some more of the questions that y’all sent in as we talk about our approach to the Bible, how it has caused harm, and how we can change it going forward. The questions I take on are…

Erica: Is the Bible meant to be read as a set-in-stone manual to be taken literally? Is it multiple genres, full of allegory? If literal, how are readers meant to adapt it to modern life?

Jason: “If the Bible says all commandments boil down to love God and love neighbor as yourself why do churches seem to be focused more on do's and don’ts?”

Jason: “Is hell real and does it matter?”

Lance: What happens to people who never knew/heard about God when they die? Would a loving God punish someone for not accepting a truth they knew? What about babies/young children?

Time Stamps for the episode:

00:41 Introduction
02:53 The Metaphysics of Elisha
06:43 Evangelicals and Conspiracy Theories
12:22 Left Behind was a Conspiracy Theory, not a theology
18:20 Authoritarian Leaders Capitalize on Conspiracy
21:48 Does all Scripture have Equal weight?
26:19 Erica’s Question
32:10 The Problem with Fundies
37:03 4 Principles for your ongoing relationship to the Bible
41:04 The Sound of the Genuine
43:15 Jason’s Question
47:36 Is the Church human or divine? Yes
53:45 Jason and Lance’s questions: Is Hell real?
59:15 Conclusions

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24: Karl Forehand: From Fundie Baptist to Spiritual without Labels

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Karl Forehand) — Wed, 30 Aug 2023 11:31:25 +0000

S2 E20: Karl Forehand: From Fundie Baptist to Spiritual without Labels

Often, church can become more about keeping the systems running smoothly, the people happily entertained, and money flowing into the plates. But what happens when you have to grieve or enter a season of suffering or become disabled? Karl Forehand is a former Southern Baptist Pastor and Church planter and revitalizer who went through a season of deconstruction shortly after the 2015 election cycle. He could no longer associate with a faith that was more about conservative politics, religious nationalism, and exclusion of the marginalized. He unlabeled himself, became open, and started to explore.

Karl is author of 7 books, speaker, and podcaster. He and his wife, Laura, founded The Desert Sanctuary, a resting place for spiritual nomads. Karl was a bi-vocational pastor for 20 years and has training in spiritual leadership coaching, plant-based nutrition, and spiritual direction. He lives in Missouri with his wife Laura and dog Winston. He has three grown children and two grandchildren. Karl and Laura call Rock Port, MO their home. Karl, recently disabled, is recovering from a stroke.

All of Karl’s works can be found here: https://rb.gy/pxczu

Time Stamps for the episode:

00:41 Introduction
04:37 Baptist Fundie Roots
09:07 Deconstructing Religious Hate
13:19 Farewell to Hell
17:48 Investigating New Paths
22:52 Becoming who you already are
28:20 The Difference between “Here” and “present”
32:56 The Practice of Recollection
38:19 No space for grief
42:16 I lost my Dad, Karl had a stroke, an honest conversation
46:52 A world not built for disability is hard for us
51:47 Unintentionally slowing down because of disability
55:02 Conclusions

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree

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23: Tom Rundel: Don't Spiritualize Your Problems

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Sun, 20 Aug 2023 14:58:30 +0000

S2 E19: Tom Rundel: Don’t spiritualize your problems, claim your confidence

Have you ever felt like God abandoned you and left you in the midst of a storm that you could not overcome? In this episode, I solo riff on Matthew 14’s account of Christ walking on the water and calming the storm. I take note of the parabolic writing style and use that knowledge to explore the meaning behind some of the imagery in this parable. Christ dismisses the disciples and they are battered by some wind and waves.

Time Stamps for the episode:

0:44: Introduction
4:45: Matthew 14 and the parabolic style of this story
9:05 Dismissed and abandoned by God
13:25 spiritualizing your problems gets spiritual answers that don’t work in real life
17:42 Take courage is NOT dismiss your anxiety
21:56 Claim your inner authority
26:00 God is not a fixer of problems, but an empowerer of souls
30:22 The saving grace of community
33:13 Conclusions

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree

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22: Dan White Jr: Burnout, Ego, Inner Journey to Healing

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dan White Jr) — Sun, 13 Aug 2023 17:21:30 +0000

Have you ever been burned out, had PTSD, had an existential crisis? So has our guest for tToday. I talked with Dan White Jr. a church planting strategist with the V3 Movement, co-founder of the Praxis Gathering, author of 4 books, pastor and Church planter for the last 20+ years, as well as co-founding and building The Kineo Renewal and Retreat Center in Puerto Rico from the ground up with his wife Tonya.

Dan has a gentle soul with the gift of healing, which I experienced first hand at a retreat at Kineo. There he delivered his story of pastoring, burning out twice, dealing with CPTSD, struggling with his ego, and recovering to find new vision. He tells his story here today, as well as using his degree in counseling and theology to blend a helpful understanding of a pathway toward your healing.

You can find all of Dan’s materials on his website www.danwhitejr.com

Time Stamps for the episode:

2:20: Introduction
6:52: Deconstructing with Rich Mullins
11:55: Journey out of Fundie Baptist and into Anabaptist
17:17: Entering the Ministry
21:34: Experiencing Abuse and burnout in ministry
26:05: The inner work of Ego exploration
30:36: Diagnosed with CPTSD
36:04: Skimming the Ego with Howard Thurman
41:40: Cracking the Ego open for transformation
45:07: Jung’s 5 foundational needs of the ego
50:36: How to live in the liminal space of a healed ego and a broken world
55:12: Three responses from others to your true self
59:13: Conclusions

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@axletree

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21: Tom Rundel: Hell, Judgement, and Universal Reconciliation

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Sun, 6 Aug 2023 11:47:35 +0000

Does hell exist? Who goes there? Does Matthew 13’s furnace reference talk about it? Today, I spout off about my views of hell, judgment, and justice. I share my thoughts around the passage from Matthew 13, commonly called the parable of the wheat and tares, where the wheat and tares are allowed to grow together until the end of the age when the wheat is harvested and put into a barn and the tares are gathered and burned in a furnace.

Does this passage talk about hell? If yes, what does it mean? If not, how do we interpret it? I also go into the four classic views of hell, Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism, Purgatorial, and Universal Reconciliation, and talk about where I land these days, why, and what it means for the lived experience of faith.

Time Stamps for the episode:

0:40: Introduction
2:02: Matthew 13, weeds and wheat
3:08: Eternal Conscious Torment is the central dogma of fundamentalism
7:40: Judaistic Roots of Mattew 13
12:26: Agricultural Sabotage!
15:44: The Big Baddie in the Bible is not Satan, it’s Empire
20:49: The Kingdom of God is like… 7 different stories
26:14: Justice and Judgment
31:35: Hell and the end of the world
36:51: Gritty Justice in Matthew
42:01: The Daniel Reference in Matthew 13
45:07: 4 Views of Hell, 2 Views of Justice
51:48: Universal Reconciliation
55:52: Conclusions

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree:
@axletree

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20: Lance Hough: The Abuse of Commodifying Creativity in Church

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Lance Hough) — Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:39:47 +0000

S2 E16: Lance Hough, The Abuse of Commodifying Creativity

What happens when a church continually commodifies creativity for a Sunday morning experience? Today, I talked with a friend and former church creative director, Lance Hough. Lance experienced leadership abuse under a few different pastors that led to an existential crisis concerning his faith and how we experience it in a modern western church experience, and the eventual leaving of ministry and healing of trauma it caused. Lance is a creative individual, and many churches can take advantage of creatives and transform art into a religious commodity to be bought and sold and traded on a Sunday. It ends up being an abusive cycle for those who create and have a stunting effect on the maturity of the attendees who become religious consumers.

Time Stamps for the episode:

2:08: Introduction
4:26: Faith roots
7:47: Serving in Church to Career in Church
11:32: How the Sausage is Made
15:51: Abusive Leadership
19:56: Crisis of Career
24:57: Questioning the Leadership and structure
29:42: A Beautiful New Community
35:07: A Fresh Start in Ministry
40:37: Existential Crisis of a Creative Leader’s Heart
46:06: Church Franchising
51:55: Putting the “Ass” in “P-ass-tor”
57:13: Losing Community Again
1:02:52 Commodifying Creativity
1:08:03 Conclusions

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree:
@axletree

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19: Caleb Jacobson: A Journey to Agnosticism

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Caleb Jacobson) — Sun, 23 Jul 2023 15:50:19 +0000

What happens when a pastor’s kid and a worship leader from a Marshill satellite in Seattle becomes an Agnostic? Today on the podcast I talk with long time friend, Caleb Jacobson. Caleb comes from a conservative evangelical background, is a pastor's kid in a family with a heritage of pastoral vocation. Caleb had an existential crisis with his faith, hit a reset button on belief, and reconstructed what he could. He left the pastorate and left the faith and became an Agnostic. I think that it is important to learn of all kinds of Liminal experiences and stories and practice empathy and understanding. I remain curious and ask questions seeking to understand Caleb’s perspectives and learn along the way. I hope you do as well.

Time Stamps for this episode:
2:21: Introduction
4:18: Rockstar for Jesus
9:16: Working at Marshill
14:45: Cleaning the slate of all belief
19:36: Journeying toward Atheism, stopping at Agnosticism
24:08: Questioning the Christian Worldview indoctrination
28:05: Being Ok with the discomfort of unbelief
31:25: Why Atheism and not progressive Christianity?
36:22: Finding peace
41:05: Fear of Death and life eternal
46:53: What is life after death?
51:49: Liminal Living Practice of mindful meditation
56:02: How’d your family take this?
1:01:46 Conclusions

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18: Tom Rundel: Mental Health and Meditation Edition

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Sun, 16 Jul 2023 15:41:44 +0000

Today I asked many of you to submit your questions to me for an Ask Me Anything episode, and I was absolutely shocked at the amount of questions I received. I have four pages of your questions, and today I take on just one, but I do a deep dive into the world of mental health. While I am not a mental health expert, I have much work on the intersection of spirituality and mental health. So today we get very practical about how much of the Western Evangelical tradition does not equip us to handle things like trauma and stress, but instead increases it in many cases. So we take on the spiritual practice of meditation today, what happens physiologically and spiritually as we discuss Tim’s question:

“How do you view the confluence of spirituality and mental health? In other words, what have you learned about how to navigate difficult seasons from both a spiritual perspective and a mental health perspective?”

With a revisit and deep dive into Jason’s question:
Is there a difference between Christian meditation and meditation in other religions?

Time Stamps for the episode:

0:59: Introduction
2:57: Spirituality and Psychological Health
8:31: Self-Knowledge vs Self-Righteousness
14:36: Church only took me half way
19:50: Becoming Fully Human and Fully Alive
26:00: The Spirituality of the Nervous System
31:11: Evangelicalism stressed me out
36:44: The Spirituality of the Parasympathetic Nervous System
41:06: The Physiology of Meditation
46:05: The Unconscious Mind
51:06: 6 Forms of Christian Meditation: Lectio Divina, Visio Divina, Ignatian Exercises
56:36: 6 Forms of Christian Meditation: Centering Prayer, Mantra Prayer, Breath Prayer
1:00:18: Meditation of other faith traditions
1:02:11: Conclusions

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17: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything: Spiritual Practice Edition

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Sun, 9 Jul 2023 19:06:51 +0000

#1 from Joseph: Do I have to love myself in order to have a relationship with God or to love God?
#2 from Jason: How does one "grow in their faith?"
#3 from Jacki: What is the point of praying on behalf of someone? Does a person/s praying for someone bring them to the attention of God and he gives them grace, protection, or healing? My thought is that God is already taking care of that person and has them on his radar. It just doesn’t seem like we need to remind God to have grace or mercy on an individual.
#4 from Jeremie: Do you think the current interpretation of prayer in modern Christianity is lost in translation? Meaning instead of asking an omnipotent spirit in the sky for favors, prayer is intended to be a time of meditation and introspection, maybe similar to meditative practices in other religious traditions.
#5 from Jason: Is there a difference between Christian meditation and meditation in other religions?
#6 from Tim: - If you could give spiritual advice to your 20 year old self, what would the most important thing you'd say?

Time Stamps for the episode:

0:45: Introduction
3:45: The Revivalists Screwed with us
8:48: The Worst Sermon Ever Preached
13:53: Charles Finney Ruins Church
19:16: The Origin of “Backslider” Theology
26:13: Fostered Religious Anxiety
32:45: Stages of Love
37:57: Psychological Projection and Hate
42:43: 3 Dimensional Spiritual Growth: Discipleship
48:25: 3 Dimensional Spiritual Growth: Spiritual Formation, Contemplation
53:50: What Does Prayer Do?
1:01:44: Christian Meditation vs Other Religions
1:03:48: Advice I’d give my 20 year old self: Chill out
All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree:
@axletree

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16: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything Pt 1: Suffering Edition

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Sun, 2 Jul 2023 18:03:16 +0000

#1 from Paul: How do you recognize God during deconstruction when God seems to have completely disappeared?
#2 from Scott: When there are tragedies in people's lives, what other things can we genuinely say to them other than “we are praying for you”, or “it’s all in Gods plan” that will be helpful in their situation?
#3 from Lance: The problem of evil; "If there is a loving God, then why does He allow bad things to happen?"
#4 Tim: When you have gone through your toughest season(s), what was your spiritual "North Star?" Along the same lines... what was your biggest fear during that season? And along the same lines... where were you most misunderstood?

Time Stamps for the episode:

0:45: Introduction
2:41: Paul: Finding God’s presence during a Deconstruction of irreconcilable ideas
12:28: Paul: Finding God’s presence during Deconstruction in a Season of Suffering
19:37: Paul: Finding God’s presence during Deconstruction due to abuse
25:42: Paul: Finding God’s presence during a Deconstruction of Dark Night of the Soul
30:53: Scott: The best thing to say when someone is suffering, anxiety dumping is not it
38:47: Lance: If God is all powerful AND all loving, why is there suffering?
49:08: Tim: During a season of suffering what was your North Star?
58:19: Tim: During a season of suffering how were you misunderstood and what was your greatest fear?
1:02:28: Outro

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15: Kevin Sweeney: The Joy of Letting Go

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Kevin Sweeney) — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 11:50:07 +0000

Today I talked to Kevin Sweeney about his newest book “The Joy of Letting Go…,” eventually we got there, at least. First we talk about a lot of amazing things, his journey as a teenager using psychedelic mushrooms and meeting God, his journey into Bible College, his deconstruction from that understanding and into Black Womanist Liberation Theology. Kevin is a wise man with a unique journey, and that makes it hard to sum up our conversation in a paragraph.

Kevin was co-founder and lead pastor of Imagine Church in Honolulu for almost ten years, He was co-founder of the Honolulu based creative collective The (un)Commons, He has also organized and taught multiple Enneagram Experience events in Hawai’i and California, he helped lead “Saying Grace,” a curated gathering of dinners and stories between the church and the LGBTQ community in Honolulu. He is the host of podcast “The Church Needs Therapy” and is a best selling author. His two books are “The Making of a Mystic: My Journey with Mushrooms, My Life as a Pastor, and Why It’s Okay For Everyone to Relax,” and “The Joy of Letting Go.” He currently lives and surfs In Honolulu with his wife and co-founder of Imagine, Christine, and their two kids, True and Mikayla.

Listen to his podcast: https://rb.gy/iwemt
Website: www.https://www.kevinsweeneynow.com/
His on Amazon: https://rb.gy/3i8sh

Time Stamps for the episode:

2:19: Faith Roots and leaving the Catholic Church
7:48: Meeting God on Psychedelic Mushrooms, and an existential crisis
13:02: The search for what’s real, not just what’s right
18:09: Building a system of Belief at Bible College, then “going emergent”
22:53: A call to be a pastor and not knowing what that meant
27:35: The Summer of Emergent
33:11: Finding truth in Black Womanist Liberation Theology
38:16: Voices who shape us along the journey, stages of beleif
45:07: Voices from higher up the mountain speaking to us at different stages in different ways
51:17: Writing The Joy of Letting Go
57:29: Letting go is not spiritual bypassing but walking the paschal mystery
1:03:13: The Gospel narratives of Letting Go.
1:08:25: We don’t want to wake up
1:10:18: Conclusion

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14: Rohadi Nagassar: Race and Deconstructing Whiteness

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Rohadi Nagassar) — Sun, 18 Jun 2023 13:07:40 +0000

Today I talk to Rohadi Nagassar about his newest book “When We Belong. Reclaiming Christianity on the Margins.” from Herald Press. Rohadi writes and speaks on the topics of decolonizing, liberation, and deconstructing western Christianity. And today we talk about just that, focusing in on talking about Deconstructing white supremacy and whiteness from our faith. He has planted two churches including an inner-city multi-ethnic expression called Cypher Church. He has also written extensively in the areas of missions and church leadership including his book, “Thrive. Ideas to lead the church in post-Christendom”.

Rohadi lives in Canada, on Treaty 7 Lands, otherwise known as Calgary, and holds a Business Certificate from Mount Royal College, a BA in Economics from the University of Calgary, and a Master of Divinity from Canadian Theological Seminary. His experience includes non-profit work in both governance and organizational development. He is the past-chair of ACT Alberta, one of the largest anti-human trafficking NGOs in Canada. He’s also a director with Mosaic Ministries.
Rohadi’s private sector experience includes running his marketing consultancy firm for over 20 years.

Listen to his podcast: Faith in a Fresh Vibe: https://www.rohadi.com/podcast/
Website: www.rohadi.com
Twitter: @rohadi
Instagram: @rohadi.nagassar
His books: shop.rohadi.com

Time Stamps for the episode:
2:05: Tell me about your people
7:05: Finding the roots of our people before assimilation
10:40: Genetic and Generational residual trauma
14:52: “Faith roots: the only people of color in a white evangelical church
17:51: What ain’t right: White supremacy
22:29: Finding Belonging
25:35: What is actually happening in deconstruction
31:39: naming the powers of white-ness
37:42: White-ness IS the water we all swim in
44:04: White folks can find their people and roots too
47:04: White Folks roots can depolarize us from white-ness politics
49:08: Wholistic Belonging: Self, Community, Land, God
53:27: Assimilation vs Belonging
58:30: Attempts at diversity
1:03:00: Four Pillars of White Supremacy
1:06:09: Shifts in society toward Post Christian
1:11:16: Liminal Living Practices

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@axletree

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13: Dr Dave Beach: Deconstructing from Suffering

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr. Dave Beach) — Sun, 11 Jun 2023 12:19:39 +0000

Dr Dave Beach lost his wife to cancer, and it triggered a deconstruction of his assumptions about the world. He found out that the propositions he claimed were not embedded deep in his own soul. He went on a journey to make sense of this event in light of his faith and eventually wrote a dissertation on the topic of Christianity and suffering with the hopes of meeting people at the intersection of their faith and suffering with hospitality and care. Dave is a retired counselor, college teacher, a current author, speaker, chaplain, and spiritual formation presenter, as well as an executive director of Four Health Family Resource Center Inc, in Saranac MI.

You can find Dave’s book here: https://rb.gy/9ri2p and
You can Dave’s Dissertation here: https://digitalcommons.georgefox.edu/dmin/281/

Below are the topics and time stamps of the issues we cover which includes,

2:23: Introductions
6:05: Faith Roots
8:11: Bad Songs that shaped his theology and expectation
10:23: “Faith” insulating us from reality
12:34: The First domino of deconstruction: Congregation vs my Dad
17:11: Power dynamics in churches
19:16: Pastoral Authority
22:43: A dissertation to make space for those who suffer
27:00: Jesus, the Man of Sorrows
31:50: Losing my wife to cancer
36:31: Trauma: shattering the assumptive world
39:00: Doubt, struggle, unbelief, AS a form of faith
43:46: The Role of God within suffering: Incarnation and Trinity
48:55: Suffering leads to awakening, but what about trauma damage?
54:51: Post Traumatic Growth
59:28: 5 Views of suffering in the Christian journey
1:04:47: Spiritual bypassing, disassociation, and transcendence
1:10:24: Suffering as initiation into reality, and God
1:12:39: Labels vs essence. Christian as noun and not adjective
1:19:18: Suffering dissolving illusion, bringing us into contact with reality
1:24:15: How is my faith more than a set of propositions?
1:25:49: Hope is not an emotion but an imagination
1:28:19: Conclusion

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12: Jacci Turner: Deconstruction as an Essential Stage of Faith Formation

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Jacci Turner) — Sun, 4 Jun 2023 11:42:02 +0000

What if deconstruction is not always losing faith? What if it can be a natural part of the faith journey that modern churches merely don’t have space for? Today, I talked with Therapist, Counselor, Campus minister, and Author, Jacci Turner about her new book: Tumbled People: Deconstructing and Reconstructing your faith. This book promises that you will find hope and encouragement for the spiritual changes you are going through, for they are a normal part of the stages of spiritual growth and development. What stage are you at? Listen in and find out.

You can find Jacci’s book: https://rb.gy/haobk and https://rb.gy/osbg5
You can find Jacci at www.jacciturner.com

Below are the topics and time stamps of the issues we cover which includes,

2:05: Introductions and Faith Roots
5:40: The first domino that sent her into deconstruction
10:03: Shalom, the Bible’s word for Salvation, Justice, Peace
11:50: Intro to the six stages of faith formation
15:40: Making space for deconstruction in organizations
21:14: Stage 1 Trusting openness of a child
24:39: Stage 2 Black and White rule keeping
25:22: Stage 3 Building scaffolding
28:41: Hitting the Wall
31:25: Getting through the Wall
37:23: Stage 4 Deconstructing
43:51: Stage 5 A bigger basket to hold more views
47:16: Cleansing the lenses we use to read and interpret
54:01: Stage 6 One heart and one will
55:31: Dark night, burnout, deconstruction, the wall
1:00:37: Tumbled People, a guide to deconstruction
1:03:19: Conclusions

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11: Zack Hunt: Deconstructing the Bible

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Zack Hunt) — Sun, 28 May 2023 15:30:38 +0000

Today, I talk with author, writer, and doodle lover, Zack Hunt about his new book, Godbreathed. He shares his experience of the Nazarene Church, watching TV preacher Jack Van Impe, going to Bible college and getting hit with an academic approach to the Bible which gave him more questions than he was comfortable with. This deconstruction led him to write his first book Unraptured and as he further processed his faith he wrote Godbreathed to help people process what the Bible is and what it is not. He is a wonderful human being and I had a lot of fun chatting with him.

You can find Zack’s book: https://rb.gy/5skge and https://rb.gy/n0lck
You can find Zack at www.Zackhunt.net and https://substack.com/@zackhunt

Below are the topics and time stamps of the issues we cover which includes,

1:47 Introduction
5:08 Puppies and dog lovers
6:20 His anti-fundie billboards around Nashville
8:30 Deconstructing Jack Van Impe, Unraptured
11:49 Voices of Guidance, Rachel Held Evans
15:11 Why he wrote Godbreathed, permission to question
19:48 Loving Scripture vs Worshiping scripture, subjectivity vs objectivity, humanity and divinity, control vs faith
26:38 the Bible as the story of God’s people told by God’s people vs History of God’s people written by God.
29:40 Finding the meaning of the Bible worthy of the God it describes, Origen and allegory.
33:20 Paul was wrong about slavery
36:05 Infallibility vs Heliocentrism, homosexuality,
37:53 History of the Fundie takeover: Pulpits, Publishers, and the Presidency
42:51 Decline of fundamentalist institutions, pastor shortage, young people exodus, same sex marriage
47:40 Inerrancy as White Supremacy and Patriarchy.
51:36 Bible as Myth, making space at the table for different views
58:39 Sola scriptura and drunk, constipated Luther
1:02:06 conformity, younger generations, MLK, justice, silent white moderate
1:06:43 Quiet quitting pastors, Trumpism, Black Lives Matter
1:10:37 The American Church is dead, now what?
1:15:05 Liminal Living when you’re excommunicated
1:18:56 Conclusion

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10: Tom Rundel: Deconstructing "Eternal Life"

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Sun, 21 May 2023 18:05:52 +0000

What does a theology of Eternal Life really look like? If you've deconstructed the idea that you need to pray a magic Jesus prayer to go to heaven when you die, what do you do with the concept of Life Eternal? In this solo recording from a teaching at my church I go into what eternal life is and is not.

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9: Aaron McConnell: Deconstructing From Fundamentalism

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Aaron McConnell) — Sun, 14 May 2023 13:00:00 +0000

Today, I talk with Aaron McConnell, a long time friend from a previous church. He shares his experience growing up in a hyper fundamentalist Baptist church and school, where the Baptist Church down the street wasn’t fundamental enough. Also half way through Aaron turns the tables and interviews me unexpectedly about my deconstruction as a pastor and how I am doing church differently, to create safe spaces for those who are unsure of their faith.

0:48 Introduction
3:03 Not Fundie Enough for the Fundies
6:14 Jumping back into church
8:46 Planned Parenthood Protest
12:07 Guilt, Shame, Fear, the fundie toolbox
17:17 Humility from pain
21:03 “Sound of the Genuine”
22:21 Deconstruction and personal relationships
24:59 Inerrancy, Ideology, Covid Mandates
29:14 Deconstructing as a pastor, creating safe spaces
33:22 Weaponizing Dogma vs knowing you’re not infallible
38:29 A Different Church MO
40:26 Suffering “Breaks” your understanding of God
43:49 Scientific Revolution, Fundamentalist reaction, new church models
47:13 Benefits of a deconstructed pastor
50:23 Liminal Living tips
55:30 Courage to love
58:22 Fundamentalism: weaponized ideology
1:01:31 Conclusions

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8: Dr David Rice: Grief, Trauma, Transition in Ministry

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr. David Rice) — Sun, 7 May 2023 13:00:00 +0000

Today I talked to Dr. David Rice about his journey into a pastoral role that followed the retirement of a beloved pastor of 33 years. They asked for change, but resisted, while shortly into this position David's father passed away. He learned that change is grief. He stayed for 8 years and left shortly after Covid shutdowns in America subsided. He had no job lined up, was emotionally spent, and moved his whole family to Oxford to weather the liminal season. The breakdown of today's conversation is as follows:

0:48 Introductions
3:20 Church Community in denial of grief
6:31 Loss of Father and personal grief
9:21 Emotional Prosperity Gospel and space to grieve
11:07 Church decline, transition, and grief process
14:43 Power Broker, leadership, boundaries, restraining orders
19:09 Church planting vs Revitalizing
22:51 leaving my pastoral role, skipped sabatical
27:06 Covid, Burnout, Everything Changed
30:49 Trauma, Loss, and Nervous System
36:01 pastoral transitions
40:38 Community, friendship, support outside church
42:18 Vocational Confidence, God’s presence, theological uncertainty
46:44 Liminality and Transformation
50:15 Expectations vs Reality
53:28 Befriending death, mortality, change
57:08 Power, Politics, Ideology, and Anxiety in the Church
1:01:11 Superheroes of the Apocalypse
1:03:18 Liminal Living
1:08:30 Conclusions

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7: Jeremie Wilson: Exiting the Faith

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Jeremie Wilson) — Sat, 29 Apr 2023 01:11:29 +0000

Today, I talk with Jeremie Wilson, a great friend, a great musician, a great soul. He shares his experience growing up in the faith as the son of a musical evangelist, his exploration of science with his college degree, his journey into church leadership, seeing how the sausage is made, and his eventual exit of the faith when there was no hospitality to reconcile his understanding of science with the demands of fundamentalist religion.

0:48 Introduction
5:04 Faith upbringing, CCM, Kieth Green
10:06 Stress of art, poverty, and false hopes of God given fame
14:16 Prosperity Gospel, Artistic Insecurity, Success
18:59 The Bible, Justice, Politics, Christian Nationalism
23:38 Systemic Theology, Communal Conformity
27:14 Science and Faith, Young Earth Creationism, Conspiracy Thinking
33:17 At odds with the faith, no space for discussion
38:36 Quiet Quitting the Church
42:27 Trying church again, but with kids
47:30 Deacon to Elder to Board Member
52:51 Excluded
57:13 Overcoming his religious prejudice
59:22 Church as a Club, the “Agent Arena Relationship”
1:05:34 Art as Healing
1:08:42 My Gay Brother-in-Law
1:13:11 Conclusions

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6: Dr. Paul Jones: Deconstruction Post Pastoring

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Dr. Paul Jones) — Sun, 23 Apr 2023 13:00:06 +0000

In this conversation with my dear friend Dr. Paul Jones, we hear his story of deconstruction, burnout, exiting the pastoral world as a profession, abandonment by Christian friends and colleagues, and finding his way through the dark night.

0:48 Introductions
6:02 Life Post Pastor
10:14 Dark Night of the Soul
14:24 Church planting and pressure
19:07 Building the Church Machine
23:36 Ego, Burnout,Boundaries
25:36 Trump, Christian Nationalism
27:02 Depression, Almost Atheist
30:25 Spiritual Direction and Counseling
36:35 Rethinking Church
41:31 Love not Found
47:07 The Unforgivable sin: Trump
52:19 Liminal Living Tips
57:39 Conclusions

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5: Jayson Simonson: Deconstruction and Poverty

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel, Jayson Simonson) — Sun, 16 Apr 2023 17:29:26 +0000

Today I talk to long time friend, Jayson Simonson, Chief Resource Officer of New International. We talk about his deconstruction process and his passion for eliminating poverty.

1:34 his faith story
3:23 Deconstruction and Poverty
10:21 Deconstruction and Spiritual Direction
12:10 Deconstruction and the nature of Truth
14:57 Church Bureaucracy and Truth
17:47 Church Entertainment Machine
21:56 Politicizing Poverty
31:17 Christian Authoritarian Empire
38:40 Row v Wade
41:38 January 6th Insurrection Spirit
48:28 Empowerment vs Power
52:19 Liminal Living Tips
57:24 Sources and Motivations

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4: Tom Rundel: Advent Part 2: A Picture Of Hope

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:39:08 +0000

In John 2, did Jesus turn the water from the religious basins into wine? I do not think so. He did something greater to which this points. I explore this story in relation to its Old Testament roots in Isaiah. Check it out.

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3: Tom Rundel: Advent Part 1: Hope A Theology Of Color

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Mon, 7 Dec 2015 21:45:51 +0000

The definition of hope is found neither in pessimism nor optimism, but in a "theology of color." Check out the latest #LiminalLiving podcast to see how.

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2: Tom Rundel: What is a Theologian: Part 2

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:14:54 +0000

Does your doctrine sound like a lawyer wrote it? What is doctrine and what is it for? We explore the roots of what doctrine means in the Old Testament, New Testament, and early church.

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1: Tom Rundel: What is a Theologian: Part 1

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:19:09 +0000

What does it mean to be a theologian? Many people have an understanding of theologian as someone who can logically systemetize doctrinal points into a bullet proof statement. But traditionally this is not the meaning of theologian, we explore the roots of this word: theologian, from its pagan origins to its Christian application.

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Chronos Kairos, A Theology of Time 2

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:31:26 +0000

Time may appear to be a bully and a tyrant. We say we do not have enough time in a day. But having a healthy relationship to time can help bring us into rhythm with heaven all around us, an attention to the present moment can free us from anxiety.

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Chronos Kairos, A Theology of Time 1

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 00:32:18 +0000

We all live within the confines of time. Time is defined as the progess of existence and events from future into the present and on into the past. Seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, all pass before us and disappear into oblivion never to be seen again. Where did yesterday go? Where is tomorrow stored? If you pinpoint the present moment as one second on a calendar, Time is rushing in and rushing onward without a pause. The Bible calls this: chronos. Everything when looked through this understanding of time is meaningless, as the writer of Ecclesiastes says. But there is a deeper understanding of time, one that is eternal, an understanding that time comes from somewhere, and this somewhere gives meaning. (music by: http://dexterbritain.co.uk/ )

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Shalom and Salvation 4

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:48:04 +0000

In our fourth and final installation of the Shalom and Salvation series we explore how the broken shalom of the earth is a reflection of the broken shalom of the human souls found within. We explore, briefly, climate change, social justice, and restoring Shalom: a harmonious interdependence of all parts of God's creation.

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Shalom and Salvation 3

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:18:06 +0000

Shalom is a big word in the Old Testament and the roots of New Testament Salvation dig into this soil. To fulfill the great commandment: Love God, others, and self, we need shalom in all three areas. In this talk we speak of Shalom with self rooted in the concept of New Testament maturity.

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Shalom and Salvation 2

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:10:07 +0000

Shalom with God means taking up your cross, crucifying everything from the old creation in order to make way for the new creation and new identity that God has for us. This is the message of John 1-4.

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Shalom and Salvation

tomrundel@gmail.com (Dr. Thomas J Rundel) — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 15:32:18 +0000

Shalom is a big word in the Old Testament. It is directly translated as peace into English, but the Hebrew is much larger than an absence of conflict. It is a universal flourishing of all of God's creation. In this podcast series we explore how the roots of the New Testament concept of salvation is rooted in this word: Shalom. When the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Greek it took three words to translate Shalom. We will explore these three words and their connection to salvation: peace with God, others, and self.

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