To all first-time listeners, this is a series where we discuss the beauty, ins and outs of studying abroad with fellow international students, graduates, and faculty members from around the world.

I'm Maryam, your host, and today we'll be exploring the exciting life of being an international student in Japan. Everyone's familiar with the country's iconic cuisines, ancient traditions, and inescapable pop culture trends like anime, manga, video games, and more. But for many study abroad hopefuls, Japan is, most importantly, home to world-class universities and quality education as well.

On that note, our guest for today, Hazman Baharom, has a lot to share about living, studying, and working in the famous Land of the Rising Sun. As a lecturer for Malay Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, Hazman has long been curious and passionate about the study of language and culture.

In fact, he even speaks six languages, including Japanese, and works on the side as a professional translator, having produced the official Malay translation of best-selling and award-winning Japanese novel, Days at the Morisaki Bookshop.

But before all of that, his journey to Japan began as a bright-eyed international student, just like me and you. Hazman, welcome. It's so lovely to have you join us today.

How are you?

Hazman Baharom: Ah, thank you for having me today. I'm good.

Maryam: So Hazman, since 2021, before you kickstarted your career in Japan, you were and still are completing a PhD in political science and government at Waseda University.

Hazman Baharom: Yeah.

Maryam: That's quite a change from your previous study abroad experience, right, as a Bachelor of Economics student in the UK? So, tell us, why Japan? Has it always been one of your dream destinations as a student?

Hazman Baharom: Yeah, thank you so much for the question and thank you for inviting me for this podcast. Well, I guess, when I was in high school, since I studied Japanese for five years, since Form 1 to Form 5, Japan has been one of my preferred destinations to go overseas. But when I got the Yayasan Sime Darby scholarship after my SPM trials, I was offered to [go to] the UK. So then, I was like, okay, I'll go to the UK first. And then, my dream to go to Japan was buried for a while.

But after I came back to Malaysia in 2018, I represented Malaysia for one of the programmes called Talk with Muslims, organised by Japan Foundation.

So, Japan Foundation selected 10 students from Southeast Asia and two from Malaysia. One is me and the other one is Dr. Raudah. She is currently, I think, in the US.

So, I came to Japan, and then we discussed a lot of things about Japanese culture and Muslim culture. And I got to know my supervisor during that time, my PhD supervisor who is Japanese. He is an expert in Indonesian Islamic movements.

So, if you listen to him speaking Indonesian, you will think that he is an Indonesian, but he is actually Japanese. So yeah, that's my PhD supervisor.

So, that's one of the reasons. My research now is about the Malaysian Islamic party, PAS. Uh, I think since there is a similarity between both of our interests, I selected to study here.

Second, I am obsessed with Japanese literature and that is why I translated Japanese novels. So, I think, why not come to Japan since I will have, like, [an] unlimited supply of Japanese literature to read, right?

So, yeah. So, these are my two biggest reasons coming to Japan.

Maryam: So, you will say that, doing your PhD in Japan is kind of like your second chance at studying in your dream country.

Hazman Baharom: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it became a dream country, and then it was buried for a little while. And then, I guess, my trip to Japan under Japan Foundation, back in 2018, reignited that dream somehow. 

Maryam: Nice. Okay, but you also won a full-ride postgraduate scholarship under the MEXT scholarship programme. 

Hazman Baharom: Yes.

Maryam: Yet, in 2024 alone, almost 10,000 students applied for the MEXT scholarship, but only six applicants were recommended. So, Hazman, can you share with us your secrets and tips behind securing such a coveted slot?

Hazman Baharom: Mhmm, thank you so much. I love to do this because I think a lot of people deserve to get this, but many of them just don't have enough information on how to strategise their application.

So, I guess, the most important thing is, be clear about what you want to research about. For example, if you are planning to do your PhD in Japan and you are planning to do something related to, well, I don't know. Now, probably the most famous idea that people are talking probably is about AI, right? AI in education, AI in economics, AI in whatever.

So, if you are researching AI in Japan, you need to be clear about what specific aspect of AI you want to research about.

So, the Japanese professors, being experts in that field – they want to know about what you want to do, right? And they want to know that you are passionate about what you want to do.

For example, when I was applying, my research proposal was to research the impact of the Japanese occupation on the Islamic institutions in Malaya. So, be clear about what you want to do in your research project. 

Number two, I would suggest that you try to create connections before you try to apply, especially for the embassy recommendation. It would help if, for example, you already have a kind of professional connection with some of the professors that you plan to work with before you apply, because they are the ones that will recommend you for the scholarship.

So, it would be helpful, in my case, before I applied for the scholarship, I already translated some books about Islamic institutions in Malaysia and I made connections with my current supervisor through my translation work. So, using that connection, it would be easier for me, professionally speaking, to reconnect with the professor later when you are applying for the scholarship. So, that's how you play with professional connections. Create professional connections in your field and that might help you in securing the scholarship.

The third one, which I always share with people who are applying for the scholarship is, in your application, try to find a way that your research can benefit both Malaysia and Japan.

Maryam: Yeah, or your home country instead, if you’re not Malaysian.

Hazman Baharom: If you are from Malaysia, try to find a way that this research will benefit Malaysia and Japan at the same time. So, that will be more appealing to the panel of the scholarships at the embassy, if you are looking for [an] embassy recommendation.

So, these are the three biggest things, I guess, that you need to prepare for the scholarship.

Maryam: Those are fantastic tips. I assume that, you know, since you mentioned creating or building professional connections before applying, I think that also influenced your choice of university as well to attend.

Hazman Baharom: Yes, yes. It influenced my decision to choose Waseda University. I got accepted into four universities, but finally I chose Waseda University because of the professor that will supervise me, and at the same time, Waseda is also known as one of the best places in the world if you wish to study Japanese literature. So, I can do my research while fulfilling my hobby of taking Japanese literature classes.

Maryam: Nice. You're just enjoying the best of both worlds there. We love to hear it. Okay. Alongside your MEXT application, what else would you say would be required from students who wish to study in Japan with or without a scholarship? How did you prepare your own application?

Hazman Baharom: Right. Okay. Personally speaking, I would suggest you keep an open mind because, the Japanese way of doing things will be a lot different from where we come from. For example, both of us are from Malaysia. So, for example, the bureaucracy in Japan and the bureaucracy in Malaysia might be quite something. It might be challenging for many people who are not familiar with that kind of bureaucracy. So, that's number one for everyday life.

Number two, I would say, if you are living outside of Tokyo, you might need to learn some Japanese. If you live in Tokyo, it would be okay if you don't speak fluent Japanese. You still can live. But outside Tokyo, then it would be a challenge. That would also be one of the requirements, I would say, for you to live comfortably in this society. 

Next, I would say, Japan has a lot of opportunities in terms of jobs. If you have a master's and you are doing your PhD, and then, your master's [is] related to things that the Japanese really need, like, for example, English education or English language, right?

It can really help you to get some jobs that will help you in your life here in Japan. Try to look at how you can maximize your own certificates or whatever that you have before in the Japanese job market. Because I think all of us are familiar with the statistics that the Japanese are losing their younger population. So, they would need more workers from abroad, especially the professional workers. So, I would suggest that – people from the Asian countries, when you come to Japan, try to look at your certificates and your qualifications. They might land you some jobs to keep you going here. 

Maryam: I would say language is also a pretty important requirement there. I mean, even if you're studying at a university in Tokyo, that would be one of the main deals, right?

Hazman Baharom: Mm, yeah. If you are studying in universities in Tokyo, I know some people that don't know Japanese at all and they can survive, because in Tokyo, many people can speak English. Imagine Kuala Lumpur, right? Almost everybody can speak English. Even though Tokyo-wide, [their] English is not as good as English in Kuala Lumpur, but they can understand you, and they can reply to you in English.

But outside of Tokyo, it will be challenging because [for] many Japanese outside Tokyo or outside big cities like Osaka, English is [a] challenge for them. So, if you are outside of the big cities, then you need to be prepared with some, like, everyday conversation-level Japanese. 

Maryam: Ahh, okay, okay, okay. Then, fast forward to when you finally arrived in Japan, what was that experience like? How did you adapt to your new surroundings and a culture that's so different from what you’re used to?

Hazman Baharom: First, for me, I did not have any big problem adapting, because I already had prior experience of studying abroad in the UK. So, it was just like a little bit of change in language and some of the administrative systems. I don't think they are, like, serious problems for me. But I also need to acknowledge that there is a gender dimension to it. For example, if you are a man, it would be easier for you to be accepted as a foreigner because for a man from Southeast Asia, you don't look really different from the Japanese. For example, Malay men will look very much similar to people from Osaka, for example, or people from Kagoshima. So, many people have mistaken me for a Japanese.

But for women with hijab, there are challenges. For example, because you look expressly different from the Japanese, right? So, some people that I know, because they are "hijabi" in some parts of Japan, they are being stared [at]. People will stare at them. But please don't misunderstand. This is not staring because they are hostile towards you. But many Japanese don't know what…what is that cloth on your head, right? It's like a curious kind of stare. It’s not like if you go to the Western countries like the UK or US – there, you can see hostile staring. 

Maryam: That's very enlightening. So, speaking of your student or academic journey while you're in Japan, as a PhD student at Waseda University, can you walk us through your academic experience? How are the coursework and programmes structured?

Hazman Baharom: Ah, okay, okay, if you receive the MEXT scholarship under [an] embassy recommendation, you will receive 1.5 years of, uh, they call it, “research student.” It is just a period where you are not officially a PhD student yet, but you are free to roam within the university. Whatever you want to learn, whatever you want to take will be covered by the scholarship. So, it's like 1.5 years of freely choosing whatever you want to explore within the university. So, what I did in my 1.5 years was, I took a lot of language classes to prepare [myself] to live in the society, and also to prepare [myself] to enjoy more Japanese literature. I also took Japanese literature classes during that time. After 1.5 years, you will officially enter your PhD programme. So, okay, [the] PhD programmes will be different according to universities. Yeah, in Waseda, different schools will also have different requirements to get a PhD. In my school, Graduate School of Asia Pacific Studies, there are only three requirements for you to get a PhD.

First, you need to complete one research ethics subject. And second, you need to publish one research paper under your single name in either English or Japanese. So, that is quite challenging for many people because you need to publish it under your name as a single author, not as a shared author with other people. And the third one is, to submit a 70,000-word PhD thesis. So, these are the three requirements that PhD students in my school, Waseda University’s School of Asia Pacific Studies, need to fulfill to get a PhD degree. Of course, people in other universities or other schools within Waseda University will have [a] different set of requirements to get a PhD, but it's generally the same. But it would be, like, quite different here and there according to different schools.

In a Japanese university, if you are doing [a] master's or PhD, there's a system called “research seminar.” Research seminar in my school is a weekly meeting with your supervisor to update the progress of your research. I believe in universities in the UK or in the US, you don't have this kind of system if you are doing your PhD.

Maryam: Interesting. Did you enjoy your time at university? Did it live up to your expectations?

Hazman Baharom: Ah yeah, well, it will depend on what kind of expectations you have. Because not all PhD supervisors are created equal. Some PhD supervisors are really pushing you to show something every week. Some PhD supervisors are more “chillax.” They don't push you to show anything every week. It's up to you if you want to ask [for] his or her guidance or not. But if you don't ask, then your supervisor will also not push you. So, different supervisors will have different styles of supervision.

Another tip before you enter a PhD programme is, try to ask students of that professor about that professor's supervision style. 

Maryam: Nice. Also, we spoke about your journey as a student, but at the same time, you landed a position as a lecturer for data science at J.F. Oberlin University, which is a private university in Tokyo. So, can you tell us more about your transition from being a student to being an educator there? And also, can you tell us how you successfully secured a job in Japan? I'm sure the listeners would want to know that.

Hazman Baharom: Right, thank you so much for the question. Okay, first, I would say, it is very important to have professional connections because I got the information about the opening from one of my fellow MEXT scholarship holders. And he was also a contract lecturer at another university. So, from his professional connections, he got the information that, oh, J.F. Oberlin had an opening for data science. He shared [it] with me and then I sent my application. 

After I sent my application, I was called for an interview, an online interview, and that interview was in both Japanese and English.

Maryam: Tell us about that.

Hazman Baharom: I guess, if you are interested in landing a job in Japan, you need to at least have [a] professional level fluency [in] Japanese if you are searching for jobs in a Japanese-based company. But if you are searching for a job in, like, maybe [an] American-based company in Japan, some of them don't require Japanese at all. But for many universities, which are Japanese-based universities, like the place that I am teaching [at] right now, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, you need to know professional-level Japanese because they will ask you that kind of question during the interview. And then, of course, you need to be fluent in English.

Next, you need to demonstrate how you are going to teach that subject. For me, what I did was, since I graduated from [an] economics programme for my undergraduate, like in 2014, the data science syllabus was mostly about how to use software, especially Excel and some other software to do statistics. Right? So, what I did was revise my own economic syllabus that I took 10 years ago in Manchester and then try to demonstrate some software skills to do some of the statistical calculations. And then, during the interview, I showed it to the interview panels. I showed my slides, and I showed the software that I am going to use for my teaching. So, you need to demonstrate that you know your stuff. That is also the same with the job that I am currently doing: lecturer for Malay studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies.

I brought the books that I translated to the interview, and I showed them that these are the books I translated from Japanese to Malay. So, if you want a lecturer for Malay studies, then I would say that I have proven myself through my publications. Yeah. So, I would suggest that you try to show the skills that you have and try to show that you can really teach this subject to the undergraduate students. 

Maryam: Speaking of employment in Japan, in 2023, right, the Japanese government announced that they aim to welcome up to 400,000 international students by 2033. And one of the ways they're trying to achieve that is by increasing support for international students seeking employment after graduation, and then boosting their post-graduation employment statistics in Japan by 25%. 

As an educator who works with various international students, and as a foreign student yourself, what are your thoughts on this? Are there any significant changes in how universities are approaching and supporting international students nowadays?

Hazman Baharom: Mm, yeah, thank you for that question. I think, yes. Universities are actively changing some of their styles to suit more international students. And not only universities. The local councils in Japan – some of them are also expanding their services to attract more foreigners to live in Japan, which I think is a good approach by the Japanese government and also from the local council. Because from the perspective of the local council, for example, the Japanese [are] having a problem we call “Shoshikoreka.” The meaning of “Shoshikoreka” is, “the babies are dwindling, but old people are increasing.” 

So, what they do is – for the local councils, some of them even have multiple international language support [services] for young mothers that are not Japanese. The last time I checked my local council, they are not only having, like, English language support, but also, like, Hindi language, Filipino (Tagalog), Indonesian, Vietnamese, and so on. They are hoping for the international community to reproduce in Japan. 

Among the Japanese universities, some are expanding fully English courses, which is, in my opinion, a good development. In Waseda University, there are some schools, for example, [the] School of International Liberal Studies for [the] undergraduate level. All courses are taught in English. So, if you go to, like, University of Tokyo, they just announced that they are opening a new school. And in that new school, it will be a full English course. So, I think this is good news for international students because the Japanese educational institution – they are really serious in expanding and attracting international communities to come to Japan due to, I would say, their own economic need.

Maryam: And I think we can definitely see that, especially with the increase in, uh, English language courses and programmes being introduced at universities, right? So, with that said, do you think, with this support in place, that international students and graduates are finding it easier to secure employment in Japan lately? Have some of your students revealed or disclosed that sort of information about their individual experiences and job-seeking over there?

Hazman Baharom: Yeah, thank you for the question. Yeah, I would say that the support for employment in Japan [is] also helpful because universities, especially, will have career guidance. And of course, like all other universities in the world, they have career centres or career counseling for all of their graduates and for all of their prospective graduates. And in Japan especially, they have expanded the different types of visas to help international students search for jobs.

Like, right now, they have the “searching for jobs” visa (Designated Activities visa), a specific visa for people who are searching for jobs. Like, after your graduation, if I'm not mistaken, if you are seriously searching for a job in Japan, you are eligible to apply for the “searching for jobs” visa, and you can stay in Japan for another six months solely for the purpose of searching for jobs. Yeah, so I would say that system is really helpful for many international students, and some of my friends are also using that visa while they are searching for jobs. At the same time, the full-time work visa in Japan has also been expanded into different types. Yeah, one type of, I think, a newer type visa is, the Professor Visa for educators from abroad. So, if you have, like, a PhD, for example, or if not a PhD, experience teaching in [a] higher education institution, you can consider applying [for] that visa, provided you secure a job in Japanese universities. 

So, I would say in terms of immigration, the Japanese are expanding a lot of different types of systems to accommodate foreigners trying to work in Japan, which I think is a good development. 

Maryam: Yeah, I think it's wonderful to hear about the many initiatives that Japan is taking to attract more international students and talent to their country. I think that gives us a lot of hope that this could be the next top study destination for students. So, if you could give one piece of advice to the listeners, to international students everywhere who wish to kickstart their career in Japan post-graduation, what would it be? Aside from, you know, building connections and learning Japanese, what kind of resources, advantages, and skills can they leverage to boost their job prospects here?

Hazman Baharom: Right, right. You know, adding to the visa types, there is also a new visa type called “visa for influencers” (Entertainer Visa) in Japan. So, if you can prove that you have this kind of Instagram followers, you have this amount of TikTok followers, then you can try to apply for (an) influencer visa in Japan because they are trying to boost their tourism. And I think some of the Malaysian influencers – they got this visa and are being paid by the Japanese government to create content about traveling in Japan. 

Another advice is, I would say, be open with your career choices. I always hear people saying this, “Oh, you learn ABC, but you are working in DEF. How does that work?” 

Well, I would say, try to think broader than what you have learned in university. Because you might have learned economics in university, but you might work in something unrelated to what you learned in university. And that's not a problem because that is just something that will enrich your experience. For example, a lot of engineers that I know end up working in something not related to [the] engineering industry at all. So, you can try to be open with possibilities in that scope and also try to make your hobby something that can be leveraged for your future self. Because some people are really serious with some hobby that the skills associated with that hobby can be leveraged for [their] professional development.

For example, in my case, my hobby is reading Japanese literature. Then, I started to translate Japanese literature into Malay and that translation helped me in securing several things. First, securing my MEXT scholarship. Second, securing my job. And third, I was just accepted to receive a research grant by the Japan Foundation. Also, I think, because in my application, I wrote there: I translated some novels into Malay.

So, try to make your hobby something that can be leveraged for the benefit of your own professional development. Some people become professional shoppers for action figures in Japan. Yeah. And some even have, like, thousands and thousands of followers on social media, and their job is just buying action figures in Japan, trying to get the best deal, and then re-sell it.

Maryam: Well, speaking of leveraging your passions or your hobbies into something that could benefit your professional development, the thing is, unfortunately, what we often hear from seniors, from our parents, relatives and all that, when choosing our degrees, it's important to pick subjects that will offer better career prospects or ones that will likely lead to more in-demand jobs, right? I mean, you could become an influencer, but not everyone is going to become an influencer. But, you know, for the majority in Japan, that would mostly be IT, engineering, AI, healthcare. Those are really, really popular subjects and, like, you know, in-demand jobs over there. For international students, do you think their field of study really matters or works to their advantage if they dream of pursuing a career in this country?

Hazman Baharom: Well, I would say yes, but that is not entirely true. It is true because, yes, to land a professional job, you at least need a bachelor's degree. And what kind of bachelor's degree doesn't matter, but if you want a professional job, if you want a good paying job, the very least that you need would be a bachelor's degree. However, your bachelor's degree never defines you, right?

Japan needs a lot of different types of professional workers, and as long as you can show that you have professional experience of working in that field, even though your bachelor's degree is in something else, you have a good chance of being accepted. For example, I would say that there are a lot of Japanese university graduates among international students. They graduated in engineering, but in Japan, some of them work in different fields other than engineering. Because what they could show to their employer are the other skills that they have other than engineering. That matters for your own professional development. So, well, at the very least, get your bachelor's degree, but do not let that bachelor's degree define you.

Maryam: Beautifully said. Speaking of switching career paths and [not] letting yourself or allowing yourself to be stuck in one place or in one field forever, for you personally, in April 2025, you landed a new role as a lecturer for Malay Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies. That's quite a shift from teaching data science before this, right? So, can you tell us what inspired this change of interest in your journey as an educator and as an academic?

Hazman Baharom: Okay. I have always been interested in literature, broadly speaking, and that includes Japanese literature and Malay literature as well. So, I guess teaching languages is also my passion. Not only teaching the Malay language, but also teaching English and other languages that I know, including Japanese, Arabic, and so on. Even though it looks like they are unrelated, languages are primarily Mathematics. If you look at the construction of grammar of any language, you can create a mathematical formula out of them. If you are a programmer, you can do this. For example, if you look at the English grammatical construction, right? You have the subject, verb, object. For example, “Hazman eats an apple.” So, object, verb, subject. And if you have a singular third person, then your verb must have [an] “S” if you are talking about present tense. So, “Hazman eats an apple.”

So, that is a mathematical condition. You can create a mathematical formula out of that. So, things might look different from the outside, like data science and teaching language. But if you look more closely, languages are basically mathematical formulae defined differently. I see that they are related, but of course, the analytical category, and also the way you define things, and also the way you create your own analysis and research are different between language research and statistical research. Of course, both of them are different in terms of how you get data and how you analyse your data, and how you draw conclusions from your analysis. But, at the fundamental level, both systems have [a] very intimate connection between mathematics and language. 

Maryam: Yes, I think that makes sense. Because I thought that language was what inspired you to make this jump. But I think it was your love for math or mathematical equations that sort of influenced or inspired your love for languages as well and led you to the current stage of your career in Japan. So, last but not least, what's next for Hazman Baharom?

Hazman Baharom: Oh, what's next? I am in the process of completing my PhD thesis in the hope of graduating soon, so please pray for me. Yeah, I am planning to continue to work here in Japan. In my opinion, I see that the research community here has great potential. So, if you are researching about Southeast Asia, Japan is one of the places that you might want to come to research on Southeast Asia, because Japan has a lot of Southeast Asian-related materials. That's number one. They have a lot of archives on Southeast Asian history and Southeast Asian society. A lot of Japanese universities and institutions are willing to give scholarships for that kind of study. So, I would suggest that if you are researching Southeast Asia, you might want to consider Japan, other than the traditional places in Europe.

I am also in the process of translating the second volume of Days at the Morisaki Bookshop, but that will not be out soon because I need to slow down because of my research. Probably, it will be out, I don't know, I hope next year. I also have a dream of translating from Arabic into Malay. Probably, I don't know, maybe two, three years down the road.

Maryam: Sounds like exciting times are ahead for you. Thank you so much for sharing all your insights about studying, working, and living in Japan. I think you gave a lot of, you know, very useful tips and insights for our listeners, and for even those students who never really considered Japan as a potential study destination for them. This might open their minds to that possibility as well.

Hazman Baharom: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Maryam: All right, guys, if you're interested in listening to more cool stories from fellow international students and grads, don't forget to check us out at www.studyinternational.com.

You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. We can be found across these platforms under the username Study International. Until next time, bye.

I'm Maryam, your host. If you're active on BookTok and Bookstagram, or if you’ve simply got a passion for writing and dream of breaking into the publishing world, our guest, Mae Coyiuto, has some tips to share with you. From all the way in the Philippines, Mae Coyiuto is best known as the author of the teen romance novel, Chloe and the Kaishao Boys, named one of the New York Public Library's top 10 books for teens in 2023. The story itself is one I'm sure many of us can relate to.

A high school girl in Manila named Chloe wishes to attend college in the US, but her overprotective dad keeps setting her up on arranged dates. Why? To keep her from studying abroad. Now, just like the main protagonist of the book, Mae Coyiuto herself dreamed of studying in the US. And fortunately for her, she did. Mae, welcome. We're very excited to have you here with us today. How are you?

Mae: I'm good, thanks for having me. And I feel like you should be the one to pitch my book to other people. That was way better than what I usually do (laughs).

Maryam: (Laughs) Now, in your book, while Chloe wants to study animation in the US, she faces some pushback from her father and family members who want her to study back home in the Philippines, just like her cousin, Peter, right?

Mae: Mhmm.

Maryam: As someone who shares the same heritage with Chloe and who has also studied in the US yourself, was this theme inspired by a true story or perhaps your own experience?

Mae: Yeah, actually, when my friends would read the synopsis of the book or the, I guess, the description before reading it, they would always be like, “Mae, are you Chloe?” Uh…it's not an autobiographical book, but I did borrow a lot from personal experiences from observing a lot of Chinese-Filipino girls growing up also. I actually just wanted to write like a young adult fiction story that starred a Chinese-Filipino girl in Manila. Because, like, growing up, I really loved young adult books. I loved reading, but most of the rom-coms that I would read always starred people in the U.S. or teenagers based in Western countries. So, this was kind of like my spin on, what would that look like if someone from Manila got to be the main character.

Maryam: Oh, really cool, but were your parents supportive of your dreams of studying abroad?

Mae: Yeah, I was very lucky. So, I'm the youngest of four siblings, and then my eldest sister actually studied abroad. She went to Singapore for college, and then I think a lot of older siblings would relate. I feel like they paved the way for it to become a bit easier for younger siblings to, like, do their own thing. So I think, if not for her, I wouldn't have really gotten the idea of, like, I could study abroad. But my parents are very supportive and they never really pushed back on me wanting to write. I think they just never expected that I would make a career out of it. So, I think a lot of people could relate when they want to do, like, a creative career. They feel like it's not usually seen as, like, a practical thing to pursue, or it's usually seen as a hobby. So that's kind of what I channeled when I was writing Chloe. Not really from my experiences with my parents, but more of like, from community, society, and like, that idea that doing something like animation or a creative thing is not something worth pursuing. I'm lucky with my own family. But yeah, I think it's more (of) what I observed from the community around me.

Maryam: Interesting that you say that because in 2011 you were a Young Star columnist for the Philippine Star. So, writing has always been a huge passion of yours. But in 2012, you pursued a bachelor's degree in psychology at Pomona College. So, what inspired you to take a different path or pursue this field at the beginning?

Mae: Yeah, so I really loved writing. I started writing when I was, like, nine years old or even younger. But then I always saw it as, like, something I enjoyed doing, and I was really exposed to – when I thought of, like, authors or books that are usually from international countries. So, I never really thought that I would study (at) college and then study writing. And none of my classmates were also doing that. So, I was so focused  – I'm sure a lot of people in your podcast could relate, that when you're trying to apply for a college, you're just so focused on that process of the application, of doing well in high school, that for me, I actually didn't think so much about what I wanted to do in college until I was there. 

And then, so, when I got to college, I was lucky that I went to Pomona, and they encouraged students to take a lot of classes from different majors, departments, so that you could figure out what you wanted. So, I was lucky that I spent my first year kind of doing that, like taking classes. And I took a biology class, I took a film class, and I took a psychology class. And I really liked my intro psych class. And then, afterwards, there was a class on Asian American psychology, which...I never knew that was a thing. I didn't know, like, you could study, like, cultural psychology, and I super enjoyed that class and that professor became my faculty advisor. And I guess I ended up with psychology just because I really enjoyed the classes. But yeah, that was kind of, like, my college freshman trajectory.

Maryam: So what was your experience like leaving home, knowing you'll be thousands of miles away from your loved ones for several years?

Mae: Yeah, I was very lucky, in that aspect, that my sister was actually in LA. She was working at that time. So, at least I had family kind of close to me in college. And then I also had an aunt who lived in LA. So, I had some family, but I think I also – I don't know, maybe I just had delayed processing in high school that I was like, I never really thought about the fact that I was going to be so far away until I was already in college. And then, there's this part in the book where Chloe, the main character, is with her high school best friend and she kind of reflects on, like, the idea of everyone at home moving on without her. And I think that was some of the feelings I was having also early on in college, that, like, you could be in college miles away doing your own thing, but then you get, like, a sense of, like, “Oh, what's happening back home?”

Like, everyone's lives kept on going as well. But you're not there to see how other people or the people you love from home grow. So, I think that's anyone who's ever left home. I feel like that's a feeling you have always even if so many things are happening for you elsewhere. You still have your home at the back of your mind. I feel like that's something I…I talk a lot about with my friends who also experience living abroad.

Maryam: Did you face any challenges while you were there? I mean, other than the emotional aspect of being away from home.

Mae: I think after college, like, I think especially right now in the US, I feel like a lot of international students are having trouble with, like, the visa situation of what happens after college. Like, there's this rule in the US that your job or internships have to be related to your field of study. So, like, sometimes I would want to get a job here or do, like, an internship here, but it wasn't related to, like, my major. So, that wasn't an option for me, and when I would apply for certain programmes or certain things, the requirement was, you had to be a citizen. And I guess, like, the reason why I also moved back home was, I was in the US still during 2020. So, that was when the pandemic was at its height. So, during that time, I think everything was just so unsure. And yeah, I think, like, a lot of international students go through this where the future might be very unpredictable. Like, a lot of things are not in your control. So yeah, I think, like, being there just made me like things where I can, like, predict what's gonna happen. But then, I think, being abroad with all those factors just made me kind of, like, trust in the process a bit more. But yeah, still working on that though.

Maryam: Okay, speaking on, like, being, you know, able to predict what happens in the future, right, you mentioned just now that finding jobs in the US, like, you have to make sure that they relate to your major or your degree, right? But despite that, during your bachelor's degree in 2013, you also joined the Cinematic Arts Summer Program at the University of Southern California to study screenwriting and 2D animation.

Mae: Mm-hmm.

Maryam: So, did this summer programme reignite or fuel your passion for writing and storytelling? 

Mae: Yeah, I guess going along the lines of me kind of just, like, trying to (be) like – My role model was my sister. So, she actually did this programme when she was in college. She did, I think it was the directing programme at USC – for a summer. And then, she told me all about it. And then, she even brought me to the USC film campus. And then, I still remember, like, going there and it just felt unreal, like that whole campus, especially their film department. You just felt like, “Wow, people who made movies actually went here.”

And that was, like, the vibe you get. And, so, after my freshman year, I was thinking that I wanted to kind of make the most out of my summer, and then, I decided to apply for this programme. And I always loved film and TV. I think those mediums inspired my love for storytelling as much as books. So yeah, I think that's why I wanted to try out screenwriting and animation. I never really pursued them or did any classes on them before. But I guess it was just…it was really cool. I'm not sure if that reignited my love for stories, but I learned a lot from, like, how to tell a story effectively in other mediums. And I also learned, I guess, with my writing, I feel like I like writing dialogue a lot. I like being more visual, I guess. So, I guess that's something I learned when I took that screenwriting class. I think the professor mentioned that dialogue was, like, a strength of, like, screenwriters. And before, I was kind of insecure that I liked dialogue so much that I wasn’t that great at the other parts of writing. But with reading these screenplays, I learned you can say so much with dialogue. So yeah, I think, like, I just picked up on what I did well and what I could work on more with writing from trying out other formats or mediums.

Maryam: Ah, we can see why Chloe wanted to be at USC so badly, right? Because it sounds really exciting since you’ve been there yourself. Like, okay, can you give us, like, a behind-the-scenes look at what the programme was like in a structural sense? Like, what exactly were the classes like? Like, how did you apply? How can prospective students get in if they want to?

Mae: Mm-hmm. Yeah, this was back in 2013. So, I'm not sure if the process has changed a lot since then. But for the classes, I remember with the animation class, it was actually a 2D animation course. I'm not sure if they still offer that because I think 2D animation was already kind of phasing out, even, back then. But it was cool. Like, I remember we were given, like, lectures and then we had readings, but then a lot of the class was focused on you kind of, like, making your own project by the end of the class. And I remember we would use this light box where you get to, like, place all your sketches and then see how you can, like, I guess with how animation is, especially 2D animation, you would make the drawing…same drawing over and over again with just, like, minor adjustments. And then, by the magic of animation, you can see it, like, coming to life.

I'm not sure if I'm describing the process correctly, but yeah, I super enjoyed it. They also had like a – I remember we got to try, like, stop motion animation. So, with that, I remember I made, like, a puppet, and then I got to take, like, different pictures of this puppet, with minor adjustments to their poses, and then make, like, a short video out of that. So yeah, I had so much fun with that class. And for the screenwriting class, it functioned more, I think I remember, more like a workshop. So, we were given access to, like, the library where we could, like, read a bunch of samples of screenplays to learn, like, the format, but then our professor really encouraged us to write our own stuff. So, I remember we had, like, a bunch of writing assignments. And then, we got to, like, pass our work around the room. And then, people would read it, and then give their feedback. Yeah, I think it's from all the writing courses I've had. I think it's similar where you have a blend of lectures, but I feel like the workshop portion of writing classes are where you learn so much from critiquing other work and, like, from other people, giving comments on your work as well. Yeah.

Maryam: Speaking of writing, while you were studying in the US, you also managed to author a couple of books for children and young adults, which were published by Anvil Publishing, which is based in the Philippines. So what was the process like from writing those books to pitching the ideas of the concepts and getting them published?

Mae: Yeah, uh, so that was a long story actually, of how that happened. So, I wasn't writing so much when I was in college. And then, I actually had to take, like, a leave of absence. I was going through, like, a personal injury. So, I was back home recovering from, like, an operation. And then, I wasn't doing much for, like, a few days, and I get really restless when I'm not doing anything, especially, like, if I can't, like, move so much. So, my sister, again, suggested to me like, “Oh Mae, why don't you write while you're recovering, and like, doing things?”

So, uh yeah, I decided to write a story. And that was the first time I tried writing again in years. And then, it ended up being, like a novella draft of a YA story. And then, I worked with an editor from Anvil Publishing when I was younger, and I decided, like, “Oh, I had this project with me. Why don't I send it to this editor and see; would they be interested in doing anything with it?”

I didn't really expect much. But then, the team at Anvil has always been so supportive of my writing even until today. So, they were interested. And yeah, I remember that was, like, 2014. It took, like, a year, I think, to make those edits, and then kind of get it ready for publication. And then we released that book a year after, from what I remember.

Maryam: That's actually really cool, though, because I think it's interesting that you've already sort of gotten, like, some experience of publishing books in the Philippines. But then, in 2018 and 2019, you still went on, like, multiple different internships, basically like a marathon of internships at various American publishing houses like St. Martin's Press, Soho Press, Simon & Schuster, and Macmillan. So, securing even one internship in the US is super stressful, especially as an international student. So, can you tell us how you prepared, and applied, and then successfully, you know, landed multiple internships in a row? Because that's really, really impressive.

Mae: Yeah. Um, so actually, after college and after that whole time when I was working on that book, that was kind of, like, that moment when I did that book back home that I decided, like, “Oh, I kind of want to see, what if I decided to pursue this writing thing or like really went for it?”

So, I was researching, and found there were, like, graduate programmes on writing for young adults and children, since everybody knew that I really liked YA fiction. And so, I applied and got accepted. And then, I moved to New York for a few years. And basically, during that programme – I got that since I was studying, like, writing – I had the opportunity to, like, do internships within that field, within publishing. And so, basically most of US publishing, I think, is based in New York, especially back then before COVID, I think they weren't as open to, like, remote work. Now I think, at least I think it's expanding to other areas in the US. But when I was there, I basically thought, like, I'm already in the place where I have the opportunity (to), like, learn from publishing and do these internships if I can.

So, every semester. I was like, “Okay, let me send out any opening I could find. Let me just send out a resume or send out my CV.” And I was lucky there were some people in my MFA class who were also in publishing, and they were very kind. And they would send me like, “Oh, Mae, here's an opening that you might be interested in.” Or they would be willing to, like, look over, my cover letter to just give some comments. There was also a programme, I think it was called, uh, Representation Matters. So there was this group in publishing who felt like they saw the issue of, like, publishing not being very diverse in the industry. So, what they would do is, they would have mentors, kind of like guide those people of colour who want to go into publishing or in the industry. So I applied for this mentorship programme and I was lucky to get, like, two mentors, and they were so gracious in giving advice and also, like, meeting with me to just go about, like, different areas of publishing, different ways I could, like, try out or go for these internships. And yeah, I think I got rejected by a lot of opportunities also while applying. But the cool thing is, like, when I would apply for, like, this publishing company, and then I would usually be in touch with, like, the HR person. And for example, the next semester, (when) I would apply again, it was nice that they would remember me. And I don't know if they would be like, “Okay, she's…she's trying out again.”

So, usually, like, if it's my second or third time applying to a company, that's when they would be, like, “Oh, okay. Like, Mae really wants to like, um…” or they knew me, or they were willing to, like, offer me, like, an interview or things like that. For my first publishing internship, I remember it was with St. Martin's and then it was in marketing. And it wasn't for children's publishing. I remember it was more for nonfiction titles or for cookbooks. And then, I think when I worked with that department, they all knew that I was really into, like, children's publishing, and so, a few semesters later, when I applied for an opening in children's marketing, I think the HR person recognised me and was just like, “Oh yeah, let's set you up with an interview.”

Yeah, I think that was my favorite one out of everything. Like, my last internship was working with children's and young adult books, and figuring out, like, how to market them and working with books that I love. I would say, like, not all genres, but, like, I read, like, other genres of books. But then, YA fiction is just something that, I think, goes to my heart, if that makes sense. So, I really love getting to work with those books also.

Maryam: I would say, my favorite genre is also YA. So, I get the appeal. Okay. So, when you completed all these internships, I remember I saw one of your posts on Instagram where you applied for an internship at Penguin Random House back in, like, 2018.

But then I think. I'm not sure if it didn't work out or so, did it?

Mae: Ah, no, yeah, I had an interview, but I ended up not getting that internship. But yeah, I remember the two times I went to that building. So when you enter the Penguin Random House headquarters, you just see, like, huge shelves of books. And then like, I don't know, I got starstruck, I think, like both times I went to that building. And even after my interview, I remember going down the lobby, and I think the security guard was just looking at me because I was just, like, staring all over the room. And then, I was just telling, like, “Do you mind if I take, like, selfies here?” And then he's like, “Yeah, go ahead.” Um, but yeah, that — the first time I went to that office was for an internship interview. And the second one was to meet with the marketing department for Chloe and the Kaishao Boys. So, that was a really great full circle moment, I think.

Maryam: I was just about to say that was like a full circle moment because, like, in 2023, you finally signed a book deal with one of the Big Five publishers, which is Penguin Random House, and released your first title under them, which is the book we're talking about today, Chloe and the Kaishao Boys. So, first, how did you feel about that?

Mae: Uh, I don't know. Sometimes, I think, like, it doesn't feel real until now. Just because like, uh, I'm sure you love books – but as someone who loves books, like, it just feels like, I guess when I see, like, one of the books that I loved growing up – um, for me, like, Chloe and the Kaishao Boys, it's hard for me to grapple that, like, it's the same. It's also a book, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know. It still feels like a dream come true whenever I process that, like, someone wanted to publish this book or, like someone from all the way in Malaysia picked up this book. But yeah, sometimes, I just have to convince myself...like, yeah, that happened. I'm always like, I always keep thinking about, like, “Oh, no, what if, like, no one wants to publish my next one, or what if I can't come up with another story again?” But yeah, I'm not sure if it has, like, registered yet. But yeah, I'm very grateful that, you know, we've reached a time where, like, publishers abroad are seeing that, people want to read about characters outside the US or outside of Western countries and are willing to, like, bet on international authors as well. So, yeah.

Maryam: Would you say that your time spent studying and interning abroad has sort of played a part in growing and helping you achieve those new milestones as an author?

Mae: Well, I would say, I do think that, whenever I talk to especially aspiring writers from the Philippines, I always say that I don't think you need to study abroad or go abroad to pursue becoming an author. I feel like we have such great talent, back home, and I wish publishers just really invest in so much talent we have here. But I guess for me, the eight years I lived abroad, it definitely inspired me. I mean, it comes out with the themes I write about in Chloe and the Kaishao Boys. And I feel like those eight years just exposed me to meeting so many different types of people, and especially people who are pursuing different creative dreams. I feel like that was such an eye-opener for me to just meet people who want to be writers, people who want to be actors or screenwriters, or, like, just seeing that, there's so many ways to achieve a creative career, and that wanting a creative life is something that a lot of people want also. I think that's just like, uh, going abroad just, like, made things seem more possible for me. I think that's…that's the greatest gift that that experience gave me, honestly.

Maryam: I think it certainly did because not only are you writing novels, which is, like, your big dream, but at the same time, you're now also helping the younger generation achieve their big dreams too. Case in point: You're currently working part-time as a graduate coach at Ingenious Prep, where you give counseling to high school students in the US and Asia, and help them improve their college applications, right? Can you tell us what that process looks like, and what inspired you to become students' go-to person for advice?

Mae: So actually, when I was in college, there was a group here in the Philippines. It was called CAMP. I think it's like College and Admissions Mentors of the Philippines, something like that. These two Filipinos who studied abroad wanted to give high school students, like, a resource where, if they do have this goal or this dream, for them to get guidance from college students who've already done it. So, I would volunteer to be a mentor and then I would help out high school students based on my experience, I would tell them like, “Oh, this is how I worked on the application.” Or I would give feedback on their essays. And I really enjoyed the work. 

And I became really interested in this whole field of college admissions, and I reached out to the admissions person at Pomona saying that I was interested in the field or, like, I wanted to chat with them about their career as well. And after we had some conversations, he recommended me to meet with this person who worked in a college counseling company. And that company had, like, a whole writing department where the main focus was just guiding students through their application essays. So, I worked there for a bit. And then after that, I transferred to Ingenious Prep. But, I guess I never knew this was an actual career as well, like college counseling. But I guess, I love the personal statement process just because, I feel like in the US, with their college essays, it's a lot more personal writing than, I guess, a lot of high school students are used to in school or are assigned to for school requirements. So, I really love, like, working with a high school student, especially those who feel like they don't like writing or they feel like they're not good writers. And then, they end up having such a great touching personal story that they could tell in their essay. So yeah, that's my favorite part of the process. And I think I have a soft spot for, like, whenever they assign me an international student just because, I feel like my own experience really, uh, changed my life. So, if I could help another kid find the school that's right for them or the path that makes the most sense for them, then uh yeah, it's fulfilling, I would say. But most of the time, I'm also like, “I hope I'm, like, guiding these students in the right way.” Hopefully I am, but yeah. 

Maryam: I think we can always say that is probably another full circle moment for you because you started out as, like, this bright-eyed international student. And that sounds like your character, your protagonist, Chloe as well, right? And now you're the person who's helping other international students also achieve their dreams of studying abroad. I would say it's pretty poetic, isn't it? Right? So, last but not least, what's next for Mae Coyiuto?

Mae: Yeah, I'm actually working on my next book. My deadline's actually next week. Uh, but it's set to be released in February of 2026. So that's next year. But yeah, it's also a YA book. It's also based in Manila. It's about this girl who basically lost her dad when she was young and then suddenly gets to meet the ghost of her dad, but she's the only one who can see him. It sounds like horror. Whenever I pitch it, people are like, “So, this is like a horror story.” It's similar to Chloe where it's a lot about family, some romance in there. I guess, my friend described it as, like, “You'll be laughing, but you'll also be crying at some parts.” So yeah, I guess that's, like, my spiel about what this next book is going to be. But yeah, that's kind of like what I've been working on for the past few years.

Maryam: That sounds so exciting. I'm going to be looking forward to it, so I'll keep my eyes peeled on that.

Mae: Thank you.

Maryam: Okay. Thank you so much, Mae. It was such a pleasure to speak with you and learn more about the world of publishing and also learn more about your experience of studying abroad, and interning there, and working there. All right, guys, if you're interested in listening to more cool stories from fellow international students and grads, don't forget to check us out at www.studyinternational.com

You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. We can be found across these platforms under the username Study International.

Until next time. 

To those tuning in for the first time, this is a series where we speak to international students, graduates, and professors from around the world about the beauty of studying abroad.

I’m Maryam, your host for today.

If you’re a fan of Indiana Jones, The Mummy trilogy, and anything to do with the history of humankind, you’re going to want to listen to our special guest, Nurul Hamizah Afandi.

Hamizah here is a museum curator at the Perbadanan Muzium Negeri Pahang in Malaysia. She visits museum galleries and archives, researches their collections of historic artefacts, and tailors different exhibitions and displays to attract new visitors to the museum. 

But before she got here, she was a curious archaeology and anthropology student at University College London (or UCL) in the UK. 

Welcome, Hamizah. We’re excited to have you here with us. How are you?

Hamizah: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me here. It's truly an honour to be invited to speak on this podcast as well.

Maryam: We’re glad to have you here as well. We're excited to learn more about, you know, what archaeology and anthropology is about. So alright, let's go back to the beginning before you started digging into bygone eras when you were just a senior high school student at Mara Junior Science College. Tell us, Hamiza, you were a math whiz who participated in the National Maths Olympiad. What suddenly inspired you to study archaeology? That's quite the switch in interest, isn't it?

Hamizah: Alright. Yes, so, like you said, Mathematics has always been, I guess, one of my favorite subjects and, I guess, it's partly because I got the exposure from a very young age because my mom herself is a math teacher. So we've been, like say, my mom's teaching math for students who come over to our home to get, like, extra classes and things like that. So, I guess I can say that math was part of my life because I have this, like, huge family thing going around. But I guess, during my upper form of high school, at some point – we had to choose between taking biology or accounting for our SPM (Sijil Pelajaran Malaysia) subjects. Like, you can't take both.

So, it was at that point that I started thinking more deeply about life after school, like what I want to do, um, for my career and so on, because, well, it's not the end of the world of choosing like either biology or accounting, but then still, it somehow can probably limit or restrict your options afterwards. 

So, back then in school, we had to do this, ah, one test. It's called a RIASEC test and I did that quite a few times with – one of my aunts is a counselor so we did that together as well. So, it's one of those occupational personality type tests. So, every time I did the test, I got the same result. So, it basically stands for, I think, R-I-A-S-E-C stands for – was it realistic, investigative, artistic, social, entrepreneurship or something, and then conventional. So, I've always gotten the ‘I’ component very high, like, the – my marks for that component (were) very high. So, I guess I found out that I'm into careers with a very investigative nature of some sort.

So, I guess it makes sense because Mathematics and Chemistry were two of my favorite subjects in school. And then they were like, with maths and chemistry, there's always, like, problems that we have to find solutions to and then you have questions that you have to find answers to. So, it's like, at the time, obviously you were not really like, familiar with research kind of thing, so I guess investigative is kind of like the best term to describe it. So, because of that, I tried to think harder about what (of) that has always interested me. So, I love watching crime documentaries. I love, reading crime, you know, books. In fact, one of my favorite novels is Sherlock Holmes. So it's during that time, I was like, okay, I think I'm into something related to, like, forensic science and something very, very research, very investigative of nature. So, um yeah, at that point, I was like, paying more attention to my interests: The books I read and, like, the movies I watched, to think about a career that I want to, like, go into. So, that's how it comes in the first place.

Maryam: Interesting. I'm still wondering how, like, that ended up evolving into your interest in archaeology, because that's about, you know, studying what happened in the past, like civilisations from centuries or millennia ago. So, how did it get into that sort of, um, specialisation?

Hamizah: Right, so, it started out as my personal interest in Forensic Science. So, basically, I was into, like, these crime documentaries and crime novels and stuff. So, I started planning to further my studies in Bachelors of Forensic Science or something related to that. But then, because I got a scholarship after SPM – so, I secured a scholarship by Yayasan Khazanah. But then, the one that they offered me is the one that they send students abroad, particularly to the UK and the US. So with that scholarship, there are limited options of unis that they send the students to because they only offer to send the students to top universities in the UK. So, I have, sort of, limited options of unis that I can choose on my UCAS application. So, because of that, um, I found out that (of) all the seven universities – seven UK universities – that they will send me to, none of them offered Forensic Science as a bachelor's degree. So, I sort of had to pivot my plan a little bit and sort of choose another degree that would still allow me to pursue Forensic Science on a higher education level – for example, masters – in the future if I want to still do Forensic Science. So, um, I did some research, digging out some information on the internet and trying to find what kind of degree that I can do as an option or alternative.

So, obviously you can still do the hard sciences like Chemistry, Biology, and still pursue Forensic Science, but then I also kept coming across these two unfamiliar fields or terms which are “archaeology” and “anthropology.” And then, just looking into these two terms [more deeply], I found out that there are, you know, there are studies about human behavior. And then, there's like a huge overlap between Science and also Humanities. So, as somebody who has a wide range of interests, which is – I'm also interested in science, but at the same time, social sciences has always been something that’s of my interest as well – I think this is like a perfect combination of studies that I can do, and then still will allow me to do Forensics in the future if I want to. So, I ended up just going for the course and just finding out what kind of requirements, what’s the degree about in the UK, and what the course structure was like.

Hamizah: I went to talk to my academic advisor in my A level college as well, and then also discussed this with my scholarship provider. And since everyone's fine with me doing Archaeology (and) Anthropology, so I just, yeah, “Go for it.”

Maryam: That sounds really awesome. Was UCL one of many options? Or was it, like, the only university that was offering Archaeology and Anthropology? 

Hamizah: So, in the UK, there are many universities that offer Archaeology as a degree, but the seven universities that were in my list or the ones in Khazanah’s lists were Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, LSE, King's and Edinburgh. And out of those seven, only Oxford and UCL offered this course. And yeah, I had to apply (to) some other courses not related to archaeology as well. I had to apply for Anthropology in LSE just as a backup. But yeah, those are the only two universities in the options available for me that I can apply to. So yeah.

Maryam: And UCL's programme attracted you more, right?

Hamizah: Mhmm, yeah, because I think, with UCL, I think being in London, I guess, they have more access to museums. They have, like, more access to libraries in London as well and then they have a lot of labs, so I was quite lucky and privileged because I was able to go to both unis because Oxford called me for an interview and then it had to be an on-site interview. So, Khazanah paid for my flight to go for the interview in Oxford and then, at the same time, actually two weeks before my interview in Oxford, we had this Open Day for (UCL) offer holders. I had the chance to go and look at how the university looked like, what the classes looked like, what the people there looked like. So, I resonated more with UCL at the time compared to Oxford because of the facilities that are available. And then there's a wider range of expertise in UCL as well. And then, I think, in the field of archaeology, UCL is one of the top anyways. So yeah, it attracted me more than other universities in the UK.

Maryam: Tell us, what was your programme like? Were there interesting lessons, projects, and coursework?

Hamizah: So, when I was in UCL, my degree was under the Institute of Archaeology, or we call it IOA. So, for the bachelor's degree, my department offered multiple different types of degrees. So, we had BA Archaeology. We had BSc Archaeology as well. And then they used to offer BA Egyptian Archaeology. But due to low demand, they have not offered the course anymore. And then, they also have BA Classical Archaeology and Classical Civilisation, but then the one that I took is BA Archaeology and Anthropology, which is like a joint degree. So, apart from modules that I had from the Institute of Archaeology, we also had the modules from the Anthropology department.

So, it's kind of like, compared to other degrees offered by IOA, according to the seniors, it's like actually double the workload because we had more modules that we had to take. Because maybe the modules that we take can count for one credit for other people, but it counts for 0.5 credit because we had to also take modules from another department as well. So, it's like, more things to learn, more things to understand, um, different modules to take and different assignments. So, it's quite a workload to have as a joint degree holder.

So, one of the exciting things being part of this Institute of Archaeology student is that we have the opportunity to take part in this 70-day compulsory fieldwork. So, you have to go join excavations and fieldwork for 70 days. I think, even for Oxford, it's only 40 days (of) compulsory fieldwork, but I think UCL has the highest number of days that you need to complete.

Maryam: Speaking of fieldwork, during your first year, you had undergone your first archaeological excavation training in West Sussex in the UK. And then you did another training abroad in Shymkent, Kazakhstan, right? Can you tell us more about them? What was the experience like?

Hamizah: Right. So with West Sussex, it was the compulsory training that we had to go to as a first year undergrad. So, everyone had to go to West Sussex to excavate for two weeks. Since it was my very first excavation, I wouldn't say it was easy. It was indeed not, not really easy, because it was during Ramadan. So, I was actually fasting for 18 hours for the first time and on site. So, I had the option of not fasting, but I guess it's not too bad also. So, like, I decided to just continue fasting for the days I was on site. And yeah, it was like a new experience of eating vegetarian food for Iftar because I didn't have any other meat options. And I guess the hardest part was feeling really homesick because everyone was celebrating Raya (Eid) at some point when I was on site. And uh, yeah, but then I guess chatting with friends really helped because, see, you spend your time and then not really think about your homesickness and everything. It really helped, spending time. And then we had the chance to go (on an) outing to a near town as well. I think it's called Chichester. So, we had the chance to explore the town itself in West Sussex. But yeah, I guess with the excavation experience itself, it was really nice.

I had really nice seniors, supervisors who are really – they're really supportive. It's not like it's like a harsh training or anything because everyone's aware that it's your first time excavating anyways. So, at some point, it felt, I mean, it's just my own feelings. I felt intimidated because my lack of knowledge on Britain’s history made me feel like I'm not really sure what I'm doing. But then our module coordinator was just so nice to explain things to me and he wasn't expecting me to know every single thing anyway because I'm not from Britain or England anyway. But then it's one of the first, I guess, it's…it kind of, like, made me understand what archaeology was all about by being on site. It's my first time being exposed to all these technical aspects of archaeology. So, it was really great, even though all the homesickness and missing Raya was not really something that I look forward to any other time.

And then, for the one in Kazakhstan – so, that's technically my second excavation experience. Yeah, that was an interesting experience as well, because I think when I was at the airport and then after I got my check-in luggage, we got a driver who took us to a hotel in the nearby city. And that was actually my first time seeing a driver on the left side, driving on the right side on the road, which is like, “Okay, that's the first for me.” I think we got to visit the museum in the city on the first day. So, because everyone had a long flight – it was an eight hour flight from Malaysia – so everyone's tired. I think it's also an eight-hour, seven-hour flight from the UK as well for my other friends. So, the first few days were just a bit chill. And then, we got to visit some museums in the city and everything before we got into, like, a 10-hour train journey to Shymkent. Because I think, maybe some people might be aware, but usually excavation sites are not located in (the) city center. So, even like in Malaysia itself, you have, like, sites in Kedah, in Sungai Petani, and then you have to travel, um, really long distance from the capital city. So, with Kazakhstan, it was like that as well. So, we had to go into this 10-hour train journey, so we spent overnight on the train journey. And then, there's a further two-hour journey to the campsite itself, like, a further two-hour ride on the van. It's…it's usually like a “kampung-kampung” vibe with any excavation site. With Kazakhstan, it was also something like that. 

But then, what's interesting is that, because I've been in the UK at that point for a year, and then going to Kazakhstan, which is a Muslim country, and then we actually had a mosque, a lot of mosques near the site, and then hearing (the) Adhan after so long is like – it makes you feel like excited. And then, actually, the first day we were on site, it was actually Eid al-Adha. So, we had people – I had my friends asking questions about “What is, like, all this ‘Raya Haji’ about?” and then “What is the Adhan?”, “What is the announcement?” and everything. So it's just kind of interesting to…to listen to these kinds of questions. And then, people (were) asking you about Sufism, because it's, it's like we visit a lot of, like, Sufi mausoleums as well. But yeah, with Kazakhstan it's a different kind of challenge because we did have some days that we couldn't work on site because there were heavy sandstorms, so we had to do just, like, work on our campsite and just do some cleaning (of) the artefacts and things like that. With Kazakhstan, we had to leave – I think I remember – we had to leave at six, I think in the morning. So, we had to wake up way earlier, had breakfast at five, and then leave at six before (sunrise) because by that time, we hoped to go back to our campsite before midday. Because it's gonna be so hot, you can't even do anything on site because there's no, like, roof or anything. So, you just have to wake up really early and then go back really early before it gets so hot. I think it's a very interesting experience to see all these sights of Kazakhstan that other people might not see, the beautiful nature of Kazakhstan, and this, like, history of Islam, the other sides of Islam that I am not even aware of. Like, we're so used to this Sunni-Shia sort of, like, exposure, but I wasn't even aware there (were), like, other sects like Sufism, Wahhabi, and everything. 

So, that's my very first kind of exposure of those kinds of things when I was in Kazakhstan. So yeah, it was a trip that I learned about a lot of things. Like, apart from other places and people, I guess I was also learning about myself and my religion. So yeah.

Maryam: That sounds like so much fun. I'm glad you also learned to discover yourself as well. But tell us, you know, what was, like, the coolest thing you learned during excavations, especially during the practical training? What kind of technical skills did you pick up?

Hamizah: All right, so with Kazakhstan, it was interesting because we expected it to be a settlement site. So, we expected to find something like maybe houses or settlements. You’d find maybe, like, postholes or buildings or, like, houses and things like that. But then what we also ended up finding [were] some human remains on site. I think there were at least two or three human remains. So, uh, for some archaeologists, for some of our supervisors, it's, it's not a bad thing that we find human remains, but documenting human remains on site is very tedious work, so you have to be very meticulous and very detailed to record every single bone that you find and, like, all these stratigraphy levels but because of that finding, we also get to learn how to document human remains. Because otherwise, I guess, archaeology really depends on what kind of things that you find as well, so your learning process really depends on the kind of artefacts that you find. So, with Kazakhstan, it's my first time discovering human remains on site. So, we got to learn how to document, how to study them. And then, we also found out that different countries have different legislations or different rules when it comes to human remains. So, with Kazakhstan, you have to actually bury the human remains again after you finish your studies, analysis, and everything. So yeah, different countries do it (in) different ways. So, that's how Kazakhstan does it. So yeah.

Maryam: So then, in 2018, you went back to your home country and underwent a one-month archaeology internship at Universiti Sains Malaysia, where you helped carry out an excavation in Sungai Batu, Kedah. Can you share with us what that experience was like? Was it any different to the excavations you had done in the UK and Kazakhstan in terms of the methodologies, procedures, and scope?

Hamizah: Right. So, obviously, they're all very different. There are very different challenges that come with it as well, mainly because we have different (geology). So, they're the kind of soil that you're dealing (with), the kind of structures that you're dealing with are so different. So, because of this, we have different excavation methods for these different places as well. So, with the UK and also with Kazakhstan, it's easy to see the layers. It's easy to dig. And then it's, like, the weather – it has different weather conditions as well. So, with (the) UK and Kazakhstan, it's an open site. But then, when I was in Sungai Batu, I was only there for a week, but I got to see how excavations were carried out. So, we actually had to put (up a) roof cover because it rained a lot. And then, sometimes, you can't even, you don't even know when to expect the rain, so you have to cover the excavation site. And then, sometimes, you have, like, some, I don't know, wild animals on site as well because in Malaysia, in Sungai Batu, it's located in the palm oil estate, so you have, like, all sorts of animals going around. So, you can't really expect what's going on, on different sites. So, with the technical aspect, even the way we excavate is different. So, with Malaysia, they have the Box (Grid) method. So you have like some grids that you excavate. You don't excavate the whole site itself. So, you have, like, different grids that you choose, according to , (the) supervisor, which one that you want to excavate. And then, if there's a need to, like, open another grid, then yeah, we'll do that. 

And then, even with the stratigraphy, like, the layers, we also document it differently, so in the UK we did the Harris Matrix system, and then in Kazakhstan, we also did the same thing because our supervisors were from the UK as well. So, we just used the same method and then, because it's something that's obvious to see – but then in Malaysia, you can't use the Harris Matrix because the layers are so similar. Like, the colours are so similar, so you can't use the same method. So, they use this Spit system to document and all. So, yeah uh, it's very different, even the health and safety procedures of the culture are different, so yeah. The, you know, the hierarchy, and then how people interact with each other is also different among the archaeologists or among the people who join the excavation as well. There are different approaches to different countries, how they excavate and how they deal with excavations and all.

Maryam: Oh, that's so cool. Can you tell us a bit more about, like, the different systems that you mentioned in the UK and Kazakhstan versus Malaysia?

Hamizah: Mhmm, right. So, um, it's quite hard to explain without, like, a diagram because I think, it's, it's quite technical. But then, with the UK, we have this stratigraphy recording method, which is known as the Harris Matrix system. So, you can see how the first layer, the newest layer, is different from the older layer, maybe because its color is different, its texture is different, and then, sometimes, they have these buildings, um, I don’t know, underneath and everything. So, you can separate the layers just by looking at it,  with your naked eyes. But then, with Malaysia, because our soil colour, like even different, even uh, the soil or, like, the layer that represents 5,000 years old is probably just going to be not even too significantly different from the one that represents, say, (an) 8,000-year-old layer. So, they have to, like, use this Spit system where they dig every 10 centimeters instead of just, like, going randomly at any sort of depth. So, they use this Spit system to make sure that they can control the layer and the depth. I guess, in a way, it's more organised that they can keep track of how long certain layers are. 

Maryam: Fascinating. I understood so much more from your explanation there. That's so cool. Okay, it's interesting to note as well that your final year dissertation was focused on human remains in Kota Melaka, Malaysia. After spending years studying civilisations in Europe and other regions in Asia, did your internship back home influence your research topic or was this something you…you had always wanted to explore? 

Hamizah: So, I guess maybe some people can already sense that because of my initial interest in forensic science, I've always been interested in studying human remains. Studying the human bones and also how things are like for humans after they have, been buried for, like, many, many, many, many years. So, that's something that I've always been interested in. So, the internship itself that I did in USM in Malaysia during my first and second year, I would say it didn't really influence me per se, but then it did provide me with connections that I could reach out to and also, like, (get) access to human remain collections for research. And I've always wanted to do something, uh, local, as in something related to Malaysia. So that it can contribute to Malaysian archaeology as well. So, uh, with that internship, I got to find out which human remains collections are available for research. So, um, yeah, I then got to know that USM at the time actually had that “human remains from Kota Melaka” collection under their supervision at the time.

It's now not with them anymore. It's with the Melaka Gallery, but then because of that, I decided to study because at the time, they had three human remains with them. And then, one was with the Jabatan Warisan Negara. So yeah, I had to go to Jabatan Warisan Negara to do some analysis on the one human remains that they had with them at the time as well. So yeah, because human remains – because forensic science involves the study of human remains. So, that's why I've always tried to, like, still tailor my interest and my study and my research towards going into forensics. So, that's why I chose to focus on human remains for my dissertation.

Maryam: Fantastic. You graduated with a bachelor's degree in Archaeology and Anthropology in 2020, but then you decided to continue your studies with a Master in Bioarchaeological and Forensic Anthropology at UCL. Tell us more about your postgraduate experience. Was it more intensive and rigorous compared to your bachelor's degree?

Hamizah: Yes, I would say it's very, very different especially because my degree was a BA degree and then my master's is an MSc so with an MSc degree, it's very lab-based. It's very science-based. It's more daunting and even more arduous because I was also juggling between working part-time and studying full-time as well because for my master's, I didn't get a scholarship, like, a full scholarship for my studies. So, I had to work to get some extra money for my living expenses. I've had days when I spent time in the lab until late (at) night because we have quizzes every week and then we had tests every month or every term. I think, I think every month. So yeah, it's a lot of studying. And then, I've even done, like, a couple of sleepovers in uni because I had to work on my research as well. So yeah, it's very…it’s very science-based. In fact, I think for some people, they can probably say it's quite medical-oriented because it's forensic anthropology. You're studying human…human body, basically. So, we have a lot of exposure on how our anatomy works as well. So, even though we're studying the bones, but you also need to know where this muscle goes because it's also connected to the bones as well. So, it's a lot of, like, studying. I don't study medics. I can't verify this, but my roommate was saying that I looked like one of those medic students because we had these anatomy notes going on, uh, in my room and then, we had to know all these different bone names and I had to remember all this and so on. So, we had to know all this basic anatomy knowledge for my master's studies and it does feel like studying medicine. But instead of treating people, I guess we're studying those who have been dead for years, so yeah.

Maryam: Was there a lot of field work involved during your master's degree?

Hamizah: So, we had one course called Advanced Forensic Anthropology. So, with that one, we did have to go into, like, a mock crime scene. So, it's not a real one. So, we had to go to this one, um, uh, particular field but where they basically – my module coordinators, they set up a mock case. So, we had to find out, we had to, like, analyse where do we…do we think the human remains were buried and stuff. So, um yeah, we – it's, it's only a three or four-day fieldwork, but it's a mock crime scene. But still, you, they look at not just (your) excavation skill, but also how you interact with your teammates. And then, with forensic anthropology, or even forensic archaeology, I think it's different from normal excavations because of the time pressure. Like, the police are, like, pressuring you for information because they need to know things fast and quick before, obviously, they want to catch the bad people and stuff. So, the time pressure is different compared to, like, the normal archaeological excavation because there's no time pressure. And then, you can take your time to do your detailed work and so on. So yes, we did have, like, one field experience.

Maryam: So now, after you completed your master's degree, you worked as a Student Services Administrator on campus at UCL for four months. Did you ever feel like extending your stay in the UK past that and becoming a full-time archaeologist abroad?

Hamizah: Uh yeap, I went for job interviews and was actually offered to extend my contract as a Student Services Administrator in UCL. But due to my scholarship requirement, because I was bonded with Yayasan Khazanah, that required me to come back and serve my bond in Malaysia. It's just something in my mind that I'm just going to eventually have to come back. So, it's not like a long term plan that I had to stay in the UK and become an archaeologist. Because at the end of the day, I guess I've always had this in mind that I'll come back and serve my country in something like that. So, even – had I gotten the chance to stay abroad for a couple of years, I think I would always like to settle down in Malaysia, because that's just the mindset that I've always had, knowing that I need to come back and serve my bond in my home country.

Maryam: Fast forward to 2023, you landed a full-time job at the Perbadanan Muzium Negeri Pahang in Malaysia. What kind of skills and experience did you need to show to become a museum curator?

Hamizah: I think this is a very good question because I've not thought about this a lot as well since it has only been two years since I started this full-time job at the museum. I wish I had asked my director the qualities that he was looking for when he interviewed me two years ago. With curatorial work, it's actually very broad because in the museum, maybe people just see from the outside, exhibition work that's being done. But then, in our museum, for example, we actually have the research unit, we have the gallery unit, exhibition unit, and then there are units that focus just on managing the collection. We have the administration unit and the development team and so on. So, uh, for me, I'm a curator in the research unit, so I believe research skills, uh, a good research skill is a must, particularly historical research. So, that's one of the requirements that you need to have in order to be part of the research – you need as a curator. And then, I guess, if you are working in a museum, passion in cultural heritage preservation is something that you need to have and then, obviously, attitude in learning because before I came here, I'm not familiar or not really well-versed in the history of Pahang anyway, so you need to have some attitude in wanting to learn and wanting to just explore as much as you can. So, that continuous learning mindset needs to be there. 

And then, um, I guess I can't speak for all museums in Malaysia, but with Muzium Pahang specifically, we have our own vision and direction that has been set by the director especially, so we had a phase where the museum was an intellectual garden. So, at the time, it was like trying to make the museum as something like a museum in a garden kind of thing. So, you have an intellectual place being surrounded by nature. But then, now, we are currently in the phase where we're focusing more on the research side. So, we are in the phase where the principles and philosophy behind the development of our museum from 2022 is actually based on this concept called “Fiqh al-Watan.”

It's like an Arabic term that means, like, you try to use knowledge about your relationship between individuals and the homeland from an Islamic point of view. So, this development that we've been doing, I think it takes into account the context of local social cultural traditions. And then, we try to work on the development and the current needs of the museum institution. So, I guess with Muzium Pahang itself, I can say that having, like, an interest or even a background in Islamic history or, like, a basic understanding or interest in Islamic history would probably be a plus point for you to understand the direction of where Muzium Pahang is going. So yeah, that's for our museum specifically.

Maryam: So can you give us more than a glimpse of your daily life as a museum curator? What's your usual daily routine? What kind of projects have you participated in at the museum?

Hamizah: Right, so, depending on the time of the year, we do have very hectic days and then we do also have, like, some very little bit of quiet days as well, especially during Ramadan where, you know, we don't have a lot of programmes and a lot of, like, new exhibition work to do. Most of the time, apart from Ramadan, we were just, like, busy preparing for a lot of things. So, for example, in August last year, we were – we just launched or, like, reopened our new galleries. Not really new galleries, it's an old gallery, but we just reopened it with (a) new updated narrative. So, because of that, we spent a lot of months before that researching, writing, and then discussing and updating our write-ups. And then, at the same time, also giving feedback and monitoring how things are done by our vendors and consultants because we do have vendors doing the printing work and stuff for the museum exhibition. Those things took up most of our time last year. But then, we also have the public programmes. So, sometimes we have the celebration – we organised “Sambutan Nuzul Al-Quran” and then “Sambutan Raya Haji Korban” and things like that. 

With the launching of the new updated exhibition last year, I was part of the media committee, so preparing press kits and finding information for the press, for the media, was one of the things I did last year. We have a very close relationship with the Palace, “Istana Pahang” as well. So, we have days where we have visits from the royals and then some institutions and the universities. So, we do have to, as curators, we do bring these people around the museum, then do some, like, a tour of the museum as well. So, those are one of the times that I can get to, like, polish my presentation skills and comprehension of the galleries as well. Well, most of the time, it's just research projects. So, it doesn't mean that I'm just, like, sitting down on my desk, just looking at the reading things, but we also go to archives, go to see manuscript letters, and then, we also did some field work. So last year, I went to Jerantut for a fieldwork to actually study about the traditional transport in Pahang. So, we looked at how this traditional “perahu” was being built. And then, we have days where we went to conferences, meetings and things like that. So, it's all sorts of different things. Like, every month, I think there’s, like, different themes of the month as well. It depends on what we're working on. 

But yeah, you can learn a lot from engaging with different people within the museum and also, people really meet outside as well. So, it's like, yeah, there's a lot of things to learn and there's a lot of things to do as a curator. And, I think, if you are the assistant curator and the…the museum assistant as well, there are a lot of things that you can learn about this museum management because it varies from time to time. There are a lot of things that you can do in one particular year.

Maryam: Dang, that was just one year, but that sounds like a pretty hectic schedule.

Hamizah: Right. 

Maryam: But I still think that that's – the fact that you still got to learn new things while on the job. A lot, actually. It's also really fascinating. When people study archaeology, everyone imagines that they're gonna be like, you know, the next Indiana Jones. But being a museum curator actually sounds really, really interesting. There's a lot more. And yeah, it was actually more than what I thought you guys usually do.

Hamizah: Right.

Maryam: But do you ever hope to become a full-time archaeologist one day and lead your own excavation team in Malaysia? Because there's still so much history to uncover, isn't there?

Hamizah: Right, so yeah, I've always seen myself as an aspiring archaeologist first and museum curator second. So, I guess, yeah, as somebody who studied archaeology, it would be great to be able to be directly involved in excavation work and fieldwork in Malaysia and, even more so, leading them. But I believe that the work that I'm doing right now is an important exposure for me as well and (a) preparation on what's to come. So, whether it's in archaeology or even anthropology or even museum studies as well. So, with my experience and being at the museum, I guess it makes me aware of different sites of history and heritage as well. So, there are things that I think I wouldn't even see and I wouldn't even learn if I end up being an archaeologist, like, right after I graduate.

So, for example, there's this thing called the “curation crisis.” So, it's basically something that a lot of archaeologists probably have overlooked where we tend to think about excavation on its own. A lot of people don't really think about the management of the artefacts that we uncovered after it's being excavated out of the site. Like, for example, if you find an artefact, for example, like a huge boat or something, some people don't even think about what happens to the boat after you excavate it. Who manages it? Like, does it go to the museum? Does it go to (a) university? Or does it go to, like, I don't know, being left just on the side? So, this kind of, like, management of heritage, artefacts or cultural heritage is not something that is – something that, I guess (has) a lot of discussion on it, um, when it comes to, like, artefacts in university for research purposes. But then, when it comes to, like, artefacts that no one is overseeing it, it becomes an issue. Like, who manages them? Like, what's the post-excavation plan? 

Sometimes, these are not being, like, thought through during the excavation before so – and with rescue excavations, in archaeology, it involves time pressure, so there's like a need to have, like, more synergy with, like, museums (and) heritage institutions to actually discuss about all these things and then have, like, more cooperation between these different heritage institutions, I guess. Yeah, if I end up being an archaeologist, I guess that's like - hopefully it will be, like, a good exposure for me to know, like, how things are like in museums and why all museums are like – museums can't do everything on their own as well because they have their own artefacts to manage. 

Maryam: I think it's great that you became multi-talented through sort of, I wouldn't say diverging, but sort of, doing something a little different than what you initially thought you were going to be. But yeah, in the end, you ended up expanding your skill set. And I think that's only going to benefit you as a future archaeologist if you do happen to go down that route one day. So, do you have any tips to share with our listeners, especially those who also dream of becoming archaeologists or those who want to work in a museum one day?

Hamizah: All right. So, I think for – I guess to the younger generations like students who are interested in going into this path, I would say, have a really strong faith because this journey will feel lonely at times or, yeah, actually a lot of times because it's not a path taken by many. So, you may not have a lot of people understanding what you're doing or you may even have your family or even friends questioning, like, what kind of things that you do, or don't even understand what you're fighting for, what kind of, like, your interests (you have) and things like that. But, I guess, you need to trust yourself and trust the process, so if it's really something that you're passionate about, just go for it. And then, I guess, it's important to surround yourself with supportive friends and also colleagues because these are the people that actually understand what your interest is about and what you're actually going for. So, regardless of what people say in questioning, because I've had actual personal experience of people questioning, “Why do I end up going to archaeology?” despite my good results, for example, and then I was, like, “Well, but everyone is destined to be a doctor, lawyers and things like that.”

So, I guess, just, um yeah, just keep surrounding yourself with people who are positive about what you're doing and then, get in touch with people from the field if you're not really familiar with it yet, to find out about the development, the progress of the field, and the country. If you believe in yourself, in your passion towards heritage, history and culture, then go for it and yeah, have faith and trust the process.

Maryam: That's beautiful advice, just beautiful. I'm sure so many of the younger generation can learn a lot from that. Okay, last but not least, what's next for Nurul Hamizah Afandi?

Hamizah: I think this is a very, like, deep question because I guess, uh well, it's interesting because my plan for this year – because of what had happened for the past two years, adapting to this curatorial role has not been easy because, I guess, with me coming back from the UK, adapting to the local culture again and then, from archaeology going to, like, you know, forensics and then, now ending up at a museum – it's like a lot of changes in transition. 

So, the plan was just to, like, take it slow in 2025, but I guess 2025 has not been as slow as I thought it would be. So, I guess it's the matter of just, like, embracing the journey because I guess I'm probably just exactly where I am needed. So, I'm just going to take the opportunity to learn as much as I can while I'm still here because we have a very – it's…it has not been easy. Like, no, I guess no workplace is perfect or ideal. But we do have a very visionary director and then I have very supportive and intellectual colleagues that I can talk to and discuss a lot of things with. So, it's something that I'm planning to make the most out of while I'm still here. But at the same time, I also aspire to be more involved in archaeological and anthropological research and initiatives, not just within the museum, but also outside in the Malaysian context in general. Well, currently I'm also one of the ICOMOS members, so it stands for International Council of Monuments and Sites, so that's where I got to also, to know – got in touch with, like, some people who are interested in heritage preservation as well. There…there are a lot of, like, archaeologists and architects who have been in the field for, like, 20 or 30 years. There are a lot of veterans there, so I can – I get to learn that and gain a lot of exposure on cultural heritage preservation in Malaysia and also around the world. So, I guess, at the moment, I guess, I would say the goal would be committing to development projects in Muzium Pahang because we have so many new museums currently restored. I think we have at least three to five or even more – I think almost 10 projects – currently being carried out. So, there are a lot of developments, new developments (that are) going to happen for the next three to five years. So, I guess I'm going to be focusing on just polishing my curatorial skills, learning bits and pieces about museum management and how it relates to archaeology in…in general as well. So yeah, what happens next? Who knows? I also have been (a) go with the flow kind of person. So, we're just waiting for the best to come.

Maryam: Thank you so much, Hamizah. It was great talking to you. We learned so much about the study of archaeology and anthropology today.

Alright, guys. If you’re interested in listening to more unique stories of the highs and lows of studying abroad, don’t forget to check us out at www.studyinternational.com

You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. 

We can be found across these platforms under the username Study International. Bye!

Gamer, guys and gals, if you dream of creating your own video games, we have a special guest today who can give us some insight on what to expect. Mody Ibrahim began his journey as a game development student at the University of Wollongong, Malaysia, back in 2013.

Then, in 2017, he moved to Canada to pursue a Diploma in Internet Applications at Algonquin College, and he's been in the country ever since as an extended reality developer. It's been a long journey with many milestones, but this all began with his passion for video games. Welcome, Mody, we're so glad to have you here with us. How are you?

Mody: Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Oh, I'm doing very well.

Maryam: All right, okay. So, let's go back to the beginning. And by that, I mean how your personal journey started. Back home in Egypt, way before you booked your first flight to Malaysia, all right? Tell us, growing up, what was your childhood like, and how did video games play a part in your life?

Mody: Oh, I certainly remember playing a lot of video games with my siblings, growing up like late night during summer vacation, when you know me and my siblings would play video games together, and I think that was something that initially launched me in that direction. 

Maryam: That’s great. So how did this interest or hobby turn from just playing games into creating and developing them?

Mody: Well, I actually sort of stopped, or rather started playing video games less in my early teens. But I remember distinctly when I was once on the internet and found this software called Game Maker. And it was this visual scripting game engine, essentially where you didn't need to code, and you just drag and drop blocks to form your logic. And I just downloaded it out of curiosity.

And I remember I really wanted to move this square with the keyboard, to have it, like, stop moving when it touches another square. And I remember struggling with that a bit. And when that actually happened, I got this, like, huge dopamine rush, and I was like, I really want to learn more about this, and want to do this more.

So while, like, I had an interest in gaming, I think it was more so the curiosity over, like, how video games are made, and how that process works, and all the nuances that go into it that actually got me really interested in the field.

Maryam: That's so cool. Did you join any clubs or societies that sort of cater to that passion of creating for you?

Mody: I certainly knew friends back then were likely interested in that thing, but I think there was a lack of kind of community specifically around that where I grew up, so I spent a lot of time on Internet communities making video games.

Maryam: Well, really cool. Did you create any video games or any sort of, like, software or projects before you actually pursued a degree in game development?

Mody: Yeah, yeah, I did. But it was very, very simple, kind of like, if you've ever been on NewGrounds as a kid, it was, you know, there were a lot of flash games and, like, really small stuff. And, yeah, I certainly have some projects from back then, but they were very simple.

Maryam: So cool. Okay, so now, usually, for students who want to pursue game development or game design, the popular destinations to study overseas would be the US, UK, Canada or Japan. Why did you choose to study in Malaysia?

Mody: Well, that's a very interesting question. Well, there were multiple factors at play here. First, I kind of knew I wanted to eventually move to Canada, as I have family here. So the second was, I knew, from the people I talked to and from what I read about the industry, that it's not an industry where what degree you have even matters. In fact, I don't know if this statistic is still true, but a few years ago, I read that 50% of those working, like, tech jobs in North America don't even have degrees in a related field. Like over 50%.

And I don't know if that's still true, but, so I was more so focused on getting into a course that has a practical application – more hands on. So I emailed a couple of universities, and honestly, kind of felt the best about the Wollongong course. And yeah, it was awesome in that aspect. And there was also the added interest in Malaysian culture, because I heard a lot about Malaysian culture as well. And I've wanted to explore that as an experience, you know, as a stop in my life. 

Maryam: Okay, so many people don't know what it takes to become a game developer. They don't even know what a degree in game development would look like. At a glance, if you were to create video games like Fortnite, Overwatch or The Last of Us, a lot of planning goes into bringing them to life.

This includes brainstorming, ideas, storytelling, coming up with the game mechanics, character design and many, many rounds of testing before you even launch it onto the market. So as a former game development student, can you walk us through what your coursework was like. What was your favourite part about this course?

Mody: Of course. So an important thing to really understand about game development is that if you're going into a game studio, there are three specialisations, and you essentially need to pick a domain. There is development, there is game design and there is art. So if you pick development, for example, you mostly won't be making the decisions on the story or writing the design documentation. Maybe you can, you know, participate in the design discussions and stuff.

But if you're picking development, my course was mostly coding classes, so you're essentially doing more or less software development, but now you're also learning about the game engines and in my course, at Wollongong, good thing about having the other streams also taking their own classes is that there were many opportunities for us to collaborate on group projects, where in the second year, we actually in one. In the fourth semester, we had to make, for example, a 2D game project together, and in the fifth semester, we had to do a 3D game project together. We split into groups. And so that practical experience and learning how to work and communicate with the other streams was very valuable. And of course, usually in game development courses, you have classes that teach you other things about game development, like other areas, like marketing, for example, game marketing. But most of the classes, if you pick development, will be about coding. But some of the classes are more so the general framework to be able to ship a game, or, like, an idea of that.

Maryam: So when you were there, were there any projects that you were really proud of?

Mody: Oh yeah, certainly. I think for my final project, you know, we made like a pixel art site scroller, or that was, that had a bit of, like, action in there too, and it was really fun to work on. And we're exploring this concept, which is something I really wanted to make. Also, the collaboration project from one of the semesters, where we made a mobile party game that can be played by four players on one tablet with one button each. And that was really fun, because seeing, you know, people testing the game and having fun with it and laughing and so, yeah, probably these two were my two proudest projects.

Maryam: I would have been proud of them too, because those sound really amazing. So, being a uni student, of course, with all the responsibilities that we have to shoulder independently, there will also be times of struggle. Were there any challenges you went through throughout your degree? 

Mody: Certainly, it was never the coding classes. It was always, like, the other classes, like the, as I mentioned, that there was a marketing class, and it was absolutely necessary, but it certainly was not an easy class for me, because it was my first time doing like, trying to do like, market research and getting a proposal ready and just going back and forth trying to, like, really understand how to do that. Those were definitely more of the challenging areas. But I've learned so much and I really appreciate the class. 

Maryam: So if I were to join a game development course like you, what are the major skills I would need to succeed in this course?

Mody: So it's, and I've heard this many times before, and I fully believe in it. The most important skill, I think, in development is to be able to research a problem or Google. And, so let's say, for example, you have a requirement where you need to support 40 online players at the same time. A lot of developers won't walk into a problem like this, knowing the solution, right? In the end, your ability to really research how to do something like that and then take that and apply it to your own context is important.

So, usually the best way to learn anything in development, really, is to have a project that you have no idea how to do, and then, sort of like, researching and piecing things together. And that's getting easier these days with, like, large language models, who will, you know, give you a strategy to tackle different problems, you know, like ChatGPT and, yeah, this, this really seems to be the case.

Maryam: Those are really great tips Mody, thank you for sharing. Okay, so, being an international student in Malaysia, how did that experience go? Did you find it easy or challenging to adapt to a new country when you first arrived?

Mody: Yeah, I think my experience in Malaysia was really great. Malaysia is a very, like, beautiful and rich country, and I was charmed very quickly with the culture, the food, the people. It's always going to be challenging to get used to being in a new place, but I think, you know, these challenges help you grow and mature a lot faster and become more self dependent. Certainly a lot of the culture cues you have to learn in a new place, but it was, overall, a very positive experience, I think. And I'd love to visit Malaysia again.

Maryam: Glad to hear that, you can come back. So in 2017, four years later, you took the plunge and did a course in Internet Applications at Algonquin College all the way in Canada. What inspired you to make that switch from game development to internet applications?

Mody: A lot of people after, I think, like, studying game development, would choose to continue their education. Some choose to go into areas like graphics programming nowadays, like, you know, machine learning and physics. There's a lot of areas you can go to. The path I took there was not very typical, but I realised that I have a really big gap in my knowledge there, and I sort of, like, researched the market a little bit in Canada, and I knew there were a lot of mobile game studios as well, so I wanted to learn about like web infrastructures and stuff like that. And it actually did help me align my first job in Canada afterwards, because that was a niche they were looking for. So being able to communicate with a web infrastructure and contribute a little bit and understand the security protocols and stuff like that was very helpful, and I actually still use it in my career. In fact, I think like half of my tasks have been related to something like that. So, yeah, it was also, like, out of interest, right, realising this gap I had and in this area, and wanting to learn about it.

Maryam: That's super insightful. You've studied and lived in two countries, Malaysia and Canada, that are so far apart from each other, not just in distance, but in terms of culture, weather and environment too. Can you tell us what that was like, especially as a foreign student?

Mody: Oh, stepping from Malaysia to Canada certainly felt like being transported into a completely different world. Again, it's always going to be challenging, getting used to being in a new place. Here, the weather is very different in Canada. After a while, in any new country, people can adapt and get used to the challenges and get used to the cultural cues, to the weather, to everything. 

So like, if that is usually a concern for someone, I've seen so many people coming from all across the world, where the weather and culture is very different, but people here are very kind, and the country is full with opportunity, especially in my field. And so although it was challenging, I think it's always like a positive experience to move somewhere when it makes sense and works out for your favour.

Maryam: Now in Canada, you have landed various jobs in game development, from a mobile gaming company like WGAMES to making video games for Netflix at Snowman. What was that experience like?

Mody: I think I was very fortunate to have these two experiences, and I think a big part of it is the fact that Toronto, where I chose to move to, has a big presence of really interesting game studios. I definitely recommend it to anyone who is thinking about moving to Canada for work and game development.

Maryam: Do you think your degree from University of Wollongong helped you during the application process?

Mody: Absolutely. I think the headstart that the practical coursework and the degree and also the resulting portfolio from working all of these projects; these two things absolutely helped me get a headstart and sort of showcase my skill set. But it's also important to know that, like, a lot of what you learn in game development, you'll learn directly on the job. So that was a whole different challenge.

Maryam: I'm sure that made things a little easier for you right? In July 2022, you swerved to a career in software development at Meta's Reality Labs. To the listeners, this is Meta platform's research unit that produces virtual and augmented reality software and hardware, such as the Oculus headsets. So, Mody, was this a different experience to what you did as a game developer at WGAMES and Snowman?

Mody: Absolutely. So it was my first time actually working in a research environment. It's very different than in a production environment. But at the same time, it was a role where a lot of my previous experience came in handy. Essentially, what my role was, was to help human computer interaction researchers build the test that they would collect the data with to prove whether their thesis is correct or not, and that goes towards building cutting-edge technology. And so, it was probably one of the most interesting roles I had, although it was very different than, say, the work you would do in a production environment where you're kind of working on the same project for two years or three years.

Maryam: Did any of the skills that you picked up from your university days help you in any way during this process? I know that game studios care more about your portfolio than your qualifications, but if you could share with us if there was anything that you learned back then at University of Wollongong and Algonquin College that helped you with getting through to the next round in the interviews.

Mody: Absolutely. For XR, generally, when you make an XR application, the most popular way to do it is to use a game engine like Unity and Unreal Engine. So having to learn or understand how to make an application like that for XR is a matter of researching how to deploy a game for XR. A lot of development is like that, because essentially this is just another problem for you to solve, whether that problem is researching how to do networking or how to deploy a game to a VR headset. So it wasn't very different from game development, actually. It still uses the same technology and same skill sets.

Maryam: Fast forward to 2023, you dove further into virtual reality at a software development company, LogicalDox. Now, you've evolved into an XR or extended reality developer, where you create industrial training simulations instead. Can you tell us a bit more about what you're doing at LogicalDox?

Mody: I think at one point in my career, after working with Snowman, I felt like I had that part of me that wanted to make video games fulfilled. And at the end of the day, when you're working on video games, it's a fantastic field, but you're making, like, entertainment software. I've had friends who, you know, web developers and app developers who make very meaningful applications that help people in their lives, to help cancer patients or mental health applications, or even, like, applications to organise day to day tasks. So I think I was craving at that point in my career, like more meaningful applications, and that sort of the pitch to join LogicalDox sold me right away. Because essentially, when people, like, are training to fix elevators, for example, apparently there is more injury and at least one death a year and that these two numbers should be zero. 

What we do is, we develop training simulations, right now, mostly for the trades, with focus on the safety training. So you put them in a virtual environment first, where they can learn, for example, how to fix an elevator with, really big focus on doing the safety steps. So that when you put them in a real life situation where they have to train in the real world, they don't make the mistakes that would cost them, you know, their lives, before even getting to the job. So I felt that was very meaningful. And, you know, it was an easy sell. It's really genuine. You know, we're getting statistics back and, like, people are getting injured less during training, because it's so common. It's actually crazy how much injury happens in trades training.

Maryam: I just think it's so inspiring that you grew up dreaming of creating something for leisure, and now you're doing something that would actually help and save lives.

Mody: Yeah.

Maryam: You've shown us how a degree in game development or a diploma in internet applications can lead to many different career paths. Do you have any tips for our listeners on what we should do or what to expect for thinking of making a switch like that in our careers?

Mody: My first advice would be to start from the job postings and work your way back. So look for the city, for example, that you're planning to move in. Look for the jobs you're thinking about, and sort of go through the job descriptions and what the requirements are and see if, like, the path you're choosing would make sense. What's your opportunity like? I think the place matters, but also the connections, the connections you make along the way, help you, and can help you in unexpected ways, but also like being very prepared for when you get, like, an opportunity.

One thing that I think professional software engineers do is that they train on coding problems even when they have job security. So that helps you when, when you get, like, a very technically demanding role or opportunity, for example, and they are testing you on a niche of problems, then you know, you don't, like, fail at the interview because you're not prepared.

Maryam: Last but not least. What exciting projects are you currently working on? What's next for Mody Ibrahim?

Mody: Oh, I'm currently leading the development team at LogicalDox. But besides that, I really enjoy teaching how to write production game code. I'm currently writing a book about game production code and sort of teaching on the side. I've been, also in my free time, I make small, silly games, and yeah, that's what I'm currently working on, and what makes me feel fulfilled.

Maryam: Alright, that sounds really exciting to us too. We can't wait to see what you put out. Thank you so much Mody, it was really great talking to you. For more stories of the highs, lows, and in-betweens of studying abroad, don't forget to check us out at www.studyinternational.com. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tiktok. We can be found across these platforms under the username, Study International. Bye.

Every month, we talk to students, graduates, professors and people from academia about their stories, their insights, and their thoughts about the beauty and challenges of studying abroad.

Today, we have a special guest, Monica Millares. She’s a trailblazer for women working (and thriving) in the financial technology market — or “fintech” for short. If you’re wondering what that is, think of online banking, e-wallets, virtual credit cards and other kinds of payment you can make that don't require you being face to face with an actual person.

With a degree in engineering and management of information systems, she has spent many years growing her career around the world, from her home country in Mexico to the UK and all the way to Asia. Seven years ago, Monica moved to Malaysia to spearhead the launch of BigPay, which is one of the largest digital banks in South-East Asia today. 

But before all of that, Monica here was just another ambitious international student like you and I. She travelled to the UK to pursue a Master’s degree in Management of Information Systems at the London School of Economics. 

Monica, welcome! So glad to have you join us today. 

Monica: Thank you, Maryam. The pleasure is all mine. Thank you.

Maryam: Alright. I just want to let you know that I think your journey is really inspiring, seeing how far you’ve worked your way up to becoming a major industry leader after you graduated. We know that it takes a lot of grit and hard work to succeed in this field.

For many of us, the experiences and skills we’ve gained during our student days often shape how we approach the real world. So, let’s go back to the beginning, alright, I’ll dive right into the questions, okay?

Growing up, what was your childhood like? What was it that sparked your interest in engineering?

Monica: Well, I had a good childhood. But at the same time, I was a nerd. I’ve always been a nerd. Since I was in kindergarten, I was the best in the class. So, my childhood was a lot about studying as well. I always got a diploma for “Best in Class” at the end of the year, from kindergarten all the way to middle school, high school, university, and then my master’s. 

So, that’s part of who I am and I guess, because I was at the top of the class many, many times, when it came to the moment to decide what to study, engineering was kind of one of the things that people suggested to me. It’s not that I wanted to, but they were like, “Oh, you should study engineering because you’re good at maths, because you have good grades.” And that’s how I ended up doing it. 

Maryam: That’s so great to hear but, yeah, sometimes, we do things because people tell us that that’s what’s good for us. But I’m glad that in your case, it’s something that you actually excelled in, so it became the right career path for you.

So, back in 2002, you used to study Industrial Engineering at a local university in Mexico, but what made you decide to do a master’s degree in Management of Information Systems in the UK?

Monica: Yeah, I guess, it was two things. One, my mother. She always said, “Hey, you have to continue your studies and, if possible, study abroad.” So, that was one thing, you know, like the push from parents.

Then, the other one was — my first job was as an intern in the product team in a development bank. And well, my parents didn’t pay for my master’s. I paid for it. So, basically, what I did — it’s like, I had to get a scholarship, and the easiest way to get a scholarship back then was to study a tech-related master’s. At the end, I did not get a scholarship, but instead, I got a loan to go abroad. But same, I got it because it was a very technical field that I was getting into. Just practical.

Maryam: Well, your mom wanted you to study abroad, but was it your choice to study in the UK or were there other options and other countries?

Monica: Well, I looked into the US and the UK and Europe, but my mom passed away when I was way younger. So, it was not like she forced me to, right. She was not around. It was 100% my choice to go. 

Maryam: As I know it, Management of Information Systems blends technical, scientific and business knowledge together. So, can you tell us a bit more about what sort of coursework you were doing? And which did you enjoy the most?

Monica: Yeah, so, when I studied engineering, we had coding classes, right. And I enjoyed them. But then when I started working, I used to work a lot with the tech team within the bank, so my idea of studying my master’s was like, oh, I wanted to do the systems architecture in a company and be super technical. And when I got to LSE — basically, LSE was very social science-based as well, at least back then. So, the programme that I studied ended up being not technical. It was called Analysis Design and Management, right, so it was the social aspect of technology. 

E.g. What happens when you introduce new tech to a company? You’re going to have resistance. How do you design it?

Like, it was much more the human side, if you want, of technology that I ended up studying, which was fascinating as well. 

Maryam: So, was there any sort of challenging coursework you had to do knowing that it’s more social science-geared rather than something that’s more technical?

Monica: Yeah, like I said, it was not technical. With technical, I mean, it was not me learning how to code, how to build a software, right. It was technical in the sense that we were talking about IT. So, in that sense, it was technical, but it was not like hands-on writing software as such. 

LSE is a very difficult uni, so every course was difficult. 

Maryam: I can imagine that. So, you know, being in London is really exciting, but like anyone going anywhere new, the first few days and weeks can be super tough. What was it like for you when you first got to LSE? And what were some of the biggest challenges you faced as an international student while you were abroad in the UK?

Monica: That’s a beautiful question. I think, at the beginning, it was super exciting. I was just extremely excited, so everything was like “Wow” and I got to London where I was staying. I was like, “Oh, it looks like Harry Potter!”

So, I was extremely excited to be there, so I always saw the good things. Some of the challenging things at the very beginning was the weather. It gets very cold — especially, you know, in Malaysia, we’re used to the sun. Mexico is not as hot as Malaysia, but still. So, the weather was a big deal. 

Then, of course, I spoke English, but my native language is Spanish, and when I got there, I couldn’t understand a thing. It’s because the accent was different. I was used to American English instead of British English, so I couldn’t understand it, really. And I was like, “Oh my God, this is so hard.”

So, English was a barrier and then, I think the social part was not because the great majority of people in the class were international. So, this is a uni where the great majority of people are international. So, it’s formed where you have international friends all in the same boat. However, when I finished my master’s, 99% of my friends left and that’s when it was really, really, really hard. Because then I was in London on my own with no friends and it was rainy and gloomy and dark, and I was like, “Waaah, I don’t like it.”

So, I went through what I call a quarter-life crisis and it was just because I didn’t have friends. 

Maryam: Aww, that’s okay. Can you tell us a bit more about that quarter-life crisis? How did you cope with it, especially when your friends left? How were you able to rise above that? Especially being by yourself.

Monica: Yeah. That was tough. I used to cry. I’m a crier. I don’t cry as much as I used to anymore, but I used to cry a ton. Basically, I wanted to come back home and my dad would tell me, “Monica, you don’t realise how lucky you are. So many people would love to be in your place.” 

So, I have this saying: Sometimes, you just have to push through, right. 

So, it’s not that I coped. I just have a large tolerance to pain, which is good and bad. But then, eventually, what I did was — I met a life coach. I went to one of his events. It was a dating coach. It was not just a life coach. It was a dating coach. I met him and went to a Saturday two-hour workshop and since then, I was like, “Oh my God, this is so good.” And then I started getting into life-coaching and “mindset” and basically managing my emotions, and that’s what really helped me. But before that, I struggled a lot. 

Maryam: I’m glad that you were able to overcome it and I’m glad that those events worked out for you. Were there other students in your batch at LSE who were also struggling with the same things as you did?

And also, I’m just curious, what was the student population like? 

Were there a lot of women or female students who were also going through the same thing as you, especially when they’re, you know, studying STEM?

Monica: Yeah, in my programme, we were, like, 5% women, but within the cohort of everyone else coming to LSE that year, there were, like, tons of women and such. So, I could say, my female friends were from the other programmes rather than from my own. Because we weren’t just like four, five, right, and I think most of us from “not cold weather” countries struggled a ton with the darkness and the weather. 

I have a friend, Sarah. I remember we used to live in the same residency and then, at the end of October or the beginning of November — I don’t remember — on a Sunday, it’s the change of the clock. So, basically, it’s, like, you need to move the clock one hour, right? So it’s like daylight savings and when that happened, I remember she called me and she was like, “Monica, what’s going on? It’s, like, 5pm and it’s already dark.”

And that was the beginning of winter. It was kind of like, oh my God. And all of us were not used to that.

Maryam: Yeah, I know, I’ve been through that as well, especially the change in weather. 

In my case, as someone from Malaysia, when I used to study in the UK as well, the four seasons were something I had to familiarise or acclimatise with, right?

So, just sort of like, circling back to you and your friend, Sarah and how women only made up 5% of your class, right?

We know that, nowadays, I’ve seen your other podcasts and also, you know, the other blog posts you used to write, we know that you often champion diverse voices in your field, but women represent less than a third of the global STEM workforce and in the UK alone, only 35% of STEM students in higher education are women. 

So, what was it like pursuing a STEM degree that’s usually male-dominated? 

I’m sure that was a different experience, right?

Monica: Yeah, I noticed it. I’m saying yeah, all the time. So, when I studied Engineering in Mexico, (it was the) same. We were five women. They were, like, all men and I think that was the first time that I struggled. But at the same time, I didn’t, because my family, like, my cousins were all men except my other cousin and I. So it was, like, many men and two women. And I used to play football and they were, like, “Oh, don’t be a girl. Don’t cry.”

I was somehow used to hanging out with boys, let’s say. So, when I started uni, I just became best friends with the guys and I was like, “Oh, I’m one of the guys. I’m one of the guys.” Like, that’s when I studied Engineering. 

When I moved to the UK, I didn’t really feel it, like, (while) studying my programme because I was used to it and everybody’s super friendly. When I felt it was when I joined the workforce and I remember the kind of, uh, vivid images I still have. It’s like me getting into the office in a very nice big building in Canary Wharf, getting into the lift and then, like, if you look at me in real life, I’m petite-sized. So, I’m not that tall. I’m petite-sized and slim. So, I got into the lift and I got to be surrounded by all these men in suits, British, you know, like, white. They looked different to me and I was like, oh my God, I’m the only girl here. That’s when I started noticing it, like, in the workplace, rather than in my degree. 

Maryam: But…did you face any challenges in the workforce when you’re being surrounded by mostly men? Especially since they’re local?

Monica: Yeah. I think I didn’t have confidence. I always used to think, “slash”, say, that people treated me differently because I was a Mexican woman in the UK. That was just in my mind probably — partially yes, partially no. I don’t really know. 

But yeah, I didn’t have much confidence back then. So, the struggles, they were always inner struggles rather than something specific happening. What I do remember, as in, if something specific happened, was at some point, I had a manager who gave me feedback and he told me, “Hey, you should be more of a bulldog” and I was like, “What is that supposed to mean?” 

And then if I already had, like, “so and so” confidence, that didn’t sit that well, right. Because I was like, “Well, I’m not a bulldog but what do you mean?”

And then it’s like — that was tough. 

Maryam: I can imagine that. So how did you manage to prove yourself in that sort of environment? 

Monica: That's a brilliant question. So, I think it’s a combination of three to four things. I am a hard worker. That’s it. I’m a hard worker. All the time, since I was a kid, right. So, that’s number one.

Number two, like I said, since I was a kid, I was a nerd. So I liked studying. When I moved from studying to work, what that meant is, I liked being prepared, I liked being the best in the class, right. So, that behaviour kind of, like, continues at work.

So, I always wanted to do, like, the best possible work ever. And then, given the somewhat lack of confidence, it was like uh, “Oh no, I need to do better.” Right, and then somehow the reality (is) that I think there’s some conscious biases that I could perceive or didn’t. It’s like, as a Mexican woman with a bubbly personality in a male, British-dominated environment, I just felt like I had to give the extra mile. Always. 

And that’s how I ended up proving myself. I worked a lot and I always gave the extra mile, and the quality of my work was really, really high. So, what happened, it’s like, when I was in school, I could always get a diploma at the end of the year. When I joined Visa, when I joined Barclays, if it’s performance reviews, back then, they also had, like, award programmes. At the end of the review cycle, I could get an award from the Visa programme and I could get an award from the Barclays programme just like I did in uni because that’s what I was programmed to be somehow.

Maryam: That’s so impressive! You really did prove them wrong, and you’ve basically worked your way up to a leadership role. 

Do you think that your experience at LSE had helped you get to that point in any way? 

And if so, how did it help you? 

Monica: Yes, I think it’s three things or two. In LSE, well, it’s a very prestigious university, right? So, I graduated with a Distinction. So, as much as I say that I didn’t have confidence, when it comes to academics and smarts, that’s where I have the most confidence, while being humble. So, what LSE did, by me graduating from this really good university and graduating with a Distinction, that gave me a super boost of confidence. 

Because I was like, oh, I am good at that. It was not like, oh, I got diplomas in Mexico. It was more of uh, oh, I got a Distinction in LSE.

And that helped (with) my confidence a ton. So, the first few years of my career, that, you know, that was part of me, I was like, yeah, I’m very proud that I graduated with a Distinction from LSE as a Mexican woman. So, that really helped a lot. And then, the other one is — one of the things I liked about LSE is that they used to have, like, open classes. And then, in the open class or lectures, they got to bring politicians, they got to bring the Prime Minister of so and so, the Prime Minister and then, it’s like, I could go to these rooms and I was like, “Oh my God.”

I don’t remember their nationalities now but it’s like, oh, there’s the Prime Minister of so and so just sitting a few rows in front of me. I’m like, “That is so cool.” And I’d get the chance to, not meet the Queen, like shaking hands, no, that didn’t happen, but I was in the same room as the Queen of England. And I was like, “Oh my God.”

So, all those experiences helped me build the — not only confidence — but this mindset of “I want to be like them. I could be like them.” These are, like, you know, successful people. They (LSE) put them in front of us because they are like role models and that could be us one day. So, I’m very ambitious as well.

I don't know where I got that from. I’m ambitious and I’m a dreamer. I’m both and I’m a hard worker. So, the mix of all those experiences — it’s like they just pushed me to be like, “Oh yeah, that’s possible.” And that’s how it influenced me.

Maryam: Right on. 

So you said that, you know, studying in LSE allowed you to meet really influential people from around the world. 

Did you get to actually, you know, speak to them or ask them for advice?

Monica: No, it was just like — they were on stage. They were being interviewed by someone, but sometimes, just like, it’s like when you go to a concert, right. You can hear the music in your house all the time. You can go to the movies. But when you go to a concert and you have your favourite artist in front of you, there’s something about the presence of that person in front of you that you’re like, “Oh my God, this is so inspiring.”

So, even though I didn’t get to speak with them one on one, just being in front of them was wow. Many years after, I loved going to conferences. You know, it’s that feeling of, “Oh, I’m meeting so and so in person.” It’s a, I don’t know, it’s a geeky thing as well. But yeah, I love meeting, like, not my heroes but the people I admire in person. It makes a difference.

Maryam: If you could name one of those public figures you met that, you know, influenced you the most, like, the ones that you met at LSE, the most memorable in-person experience, which one would it be?

Monica: The Queen. Obviously. 

Maryam: Tell us a bit more about that.

Monica: It was the opening of the new building in LSE. So, basically, they invited certain students to be part of the ceremony. It was a big deal, right. I mean, basically, uh, it influences from the moment of — hey, you’ve been invited to this ceremony and you’re like, “Oh my God, what do I, you know, what are the protocols?” Because it’s like, you cannot wear this, you cannot do this, like, shake hands with the other. I was not going to meet her and shake hands but you know, they tell you all these protocols. So, just like, from the moment of saying, “Oh, I’m going to be in the same room as the Queen and I’m going to see her walk in”, it’s amazing.

And I remember, yeah, like, she was coming in and I was on the sides. I was like, aah. So amazing. Yeah, that’s the most memorable one. 

Maryam: I’m sure that one was also iconic. Imagine being influenced by the queen though.

Monica: Oh, that could have been amazing, right? Like, finally meeting her. That could have been, like, wow.

Maryam: We were talking about powerful women. I think that is a great example, right?

Monica: Yeah, and actually, now that you said that, I should have some pictures somewhere, maybe on my Facebook, like from many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago that I haven’t seen. I hope I still have them. You made me think. Now I’ll just, like, go and check if I have some. 

Maryam: Would be great! I mean, if you could share some of those photos with us as well, that would be awesome.

Okay, you know, so moving past your LSE experience, right, in the year 2009, you graduated with a master’s degree in Management of Information Systems. From then on, what made you explore the fintech industry? Is that a typical role? How did you make that decision?

Monica: Yup, I didn’t make a decision. I was in the UK. It was 2008, 2009. We were in the middle of a financial crisis. There were no jobs. I applied for over a hundred places, a hundred jobs, got tons of rejections, and I finally got a job at Visa. So, I took the job. 

So, it was not uh, “Oh, I want to get into financial services.” It was uh, “Oh, I want to stay in the UK. I want to get a job and I’m going to do anything in my power to do this.” It was a tough year to get a job, but eventually I did. So, that opened the door to financial services. But having said that, my previous work experience in Mexico was also in a bank, so I was not going from scratch. Then, I did a few years at Visa, a few years at Barclays, and then, basically, an opportunity came up to me. 

It was like, “Hey, basically these entrepreneurs are starting a new bank.” That was the beginning of fintech, such as we know it today. The Bank of England had only given one banking license in the past one hundred years. So, this was like a unique thing, like, they were applying for a banking license and back then, I was like, well, I could continue in my job, I could go and study an MBA, or I could take this very risky job and do an experiential MBA and go and build a bank from scratch. So, I did. 

Maryam: And you did it so well. 

Monica: I kind of did. 

Maryam: Did you ever, at any point in time, feel like you want to change your career paths, you know, from fintech to another? 

Monica: A thousand times, yes. Many, many times. All the time. Yeah. So, when I was telling you about the quarter-life crisis, back then, I was like, “I don’t like this. I’m not passionate about payments. I don’t [non-lexical vocables].”

Barclays, eventually, at some point, I was like, “I don’t like this. This is boring. [non-lexical vocables].”

So yeah, no, I didn’t like it. It was until I joined the start-up world, fintech as such, that I really became very passionate about it. And I think it was two things. The founder of Tandem bank, my first fintech, he was very purpose-driven. That’s it. Everything was about, like, helping customers. Banking is broken, people have a ton of financial stress, and basically, it was that sense of — we’re not just doing our jobs. We’re just not building a bank, but we are helping people with something meaningful. So, the moment that I started adding a lens of purpose and giving back added meaning to my day-to-day job, that’s the moment that I was, like, I love this.

Maryam: I’m glad you found that passion, so, at least now, you don’t have any thoughts of, sort of, switching careers, or anything.

Actually, instead of moving sideways, you’re building your way up. 

So, as someone who has already been there and done that, and has totally excelled at it, you know, what advice do you have for other women or young girls who also want to pursue, or further their education in STEM subjects, or work in the fintech sector like you? 

Monica: Yes, it’s tough. It’s really tough, so you must be prepared. That’s my best advice. Like, be prepared, give it your best, be strategic. And what that means is, know what you want and where you’re going. Be resilient because it’s going to be tough and you’re going to have setbacks, and you’re not going to get a promotion, and you’re not going to get this, and you’re not going to get that. And people are going to talk, like, not too nicely to you. 

I’m seeing your face and you’re like, “Oh my God, this sounds horrible.” I’m like, that’s the reality of the workplace. So, it’s, uh, don’t take things personal. Be aggressive with your dreams. I think it’s that. It’s, uh, don’t take no for an answer. It’s, uh, if you want to be the president of the company, work for it. You’ll make it, but be strategic and don’t let your emotions take the best out of you. 

Maryam: Can you explain a bit further how to be strategic about this? 

Monica: Oh, that’s a good question. 

Maryam: Whether it’s in university or in the workplace or both, like, how do we navigate that?

Monica: Yeah, I’m a planner. So, when I moved to the UK, it took me, like, a year or so before I got my scholarship. But I had a spreadsheet with tons of options on how I could move abroad. University scholarship is the other and I explored them all, and I kind of tried to maximise my opportunities. So, same, when I moved to the UK, I was very clear (on) what my objective (was). Some family members were like, “You just graduated from LSE with a Distinction. Come back home. You’re not finding a job. What are you going to do?”

I was like, “I’ll stick here and work in McDonalds if I have to. Just to stay here.” And they were like, “Are you serious?” So, I was like, “Yes.”

And the reason why I’m saying this is, like, be clear on what’s your objective. That’s being strategic. Because, you know, back then, for me, my objective was not to get the best job. For me, my objective was to stay one more year in the UK so that I could have UK experience and I was obsessed with it. And then, same, like, throughout my career — so that’s at the beginning, right?

Then, when I was in Tandem, back then, I used to do a lot of coaching and I had a friend from coaching school as well. And we used to go to the park every month or two. And we would be like, “Okay, what is this month or what is this chapter about?” We were like, “Oh, I’m facing these challenges. This is what we’re doing.” And we were like, “Okay, this is a chapter where we focus on learning financials. This is a chapter where we focus on stakeholder management. This is a chapter…” — it was very intentional. 

When I moved to Malaysia, I had a checklist. I had a matrix where I assessed the opportunity, the company, the managers, and how my life could be like. And I was like, okay, it ticks the boxes. I came here and then, same, I had a list of things that I wanted to achieve as a result of moving here. In a year, two, or three, I achieved them, and then I was like, “Why am I staying?”

And then again, it’s uh, you need to go back to “What do you want? What’s your objective?” and work for it. So, that’s what I mean (by) “be strategic”. Know what you want, have a plan, execute the plan.

Maryam: I think that’s really good advice. It’s really thorough as well and I think we can all learn from that.

So, last question but not the least, chuckles, last but not least, what’s next for Monica Millares? Are there any exciting projects you’d like to share or tease?

Monica: That’s a very difficult question because I don’t even know what’s next. In a way, but I’m like, “To dominate the world!”

Laughs, no, uh, the podcast. I love the podcast. As you know, like, I have my side project. It’s a passion project that, by now, has become my life’s work. So, whatever my next job is or remains to be, the podcast continues to have a ton of relevance and importance in my life. So, it’s more of, uh, how can I do it better? How can I impact more people? How can I contribute more to the industry, younger generations? I think that’s kind of — part of my life’s work is in communicating and I love the podcast. So, it’s like I’m obsessed again. 

Maryam: That sounds awesome. Yeah, I’ve seen your podcast before. I think you’re doing really, really great. 

Monica: Thank you.

Maryam: Alright! 

I think we’ve come to the end of our chat with the brilliant Monica. We hope you all had fun listening in. 

Be sure to check us out at www.studyinternational.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. We can be found across these platforms under the username Study International.

Until next time!

Hi guys. How are you today? 

Shawna Hooton: Hi, Shekinah, thanks for having us on the show. It's great to be here. 

Brendan Hughes: Hey, Shekinah, great to be here as well. Thank you. Good intro. 

Shekinah Kannan: Thank you so much for making the time to join us, and we're really excited to know more about Adelaide University and, of course, how your respective institutions are supporting international students today. So, to jump right into it, Adelaide University's homepage opens with this line, “Launching the next generation of leaders towards their significant firsts.” By the phrase significant firsts, we know Adelaide University is recognising how important this transition period is. It's the first big decision to choose a subject to prepare for their first career, the first time they're choosing a university, the first time living alone, and so forth. Before we go into how Adelaide University supports students through each of these new stages in their lives, it will be great to know more about the overarching policy and philosophy that Adelaide University takes in supporting international students. 

Brendan, perhaps you want to walk us through that. 

Brendan Hughes: Sure, I'll probably go first with this, and then Shawna can contribute. But I think we also chose the term “launching” because Adelaide is going to be home to the Australian Space Agency as well. So there's some double entendre with the idea that we've got the Space Agency, we've got the newest university in the world and like you said, based on the histories of the University of South Australia and the University of Adelaide, which have been around for over 180 years, we are looking to build a more successful and contemporary future-focused teaching and learning experience for students, including international students. Adelaide University will become a member of the prestigious group of eight universities, which are the research-focused universities, but also really trying to balance that idea of research excellence as well as equity and accessibility. We're aspiring to be the best university in student employment outcomes. So that's some of our philosophies that you were looking for, and also to be in the top one per cent of universities in terms of world rankings. So, with the outstanding facilities and practices that the two universities currently have, we're going to build on those, I guess, again, with the theme of launching would be that launchpad towards going into the future and being future-focused. We're transforming our curriculum by making sure that it's industry-relevant and industry-informed. We're also going to be making sure that students, I believe most students these days, are looking for a university degree that can help them have an outstanding career. So really focusing on that career development, the work integrated learning, how they can become better, the best versions of themselves, and make the world a better place. Then lastly, just in terms of having a student experience vision for Adelaide University, we've developed one across the university that's been informed by our current students, that is essentially holistic and integrated in its approach. It's relentlessly pursuing accessibility and inclusion. We will collaborate and create rich experiences across our engaging communities and will integrate employability across the student experience. So this is going to achieve that student experience for our international and domestic students to come together at Adelaide University and to be able to have the most terrific experience that they can, which is recognising this is a big decision for international students and their families. Shawna, I'm not sure if you wanted to expand on anything that I might have missed. 

Shawna Hooton: Well, just coming back to something that you said earlier about the vision being informed by our current students, I just really wanted to highlight that, because I think a big benefit of starting a new university off the back of two already really successful universities is we have all of these current students, and we're listening to them. We want to know the university that they want to go into in the future. And having that student voice and honouring and embedding that student voice into our vision, but also into our operational practices in the new university, is something that I think is really special, really unique to Adelaide University. 

Brendan Hughes: And that's a good point, Shawna. Also, even in the creation of our Adelaide University, we've set up a student advisory panel where we actually have 20 students from each institution, making a group of 40 who come together every two weeks to be able to soundboard the different ideas that we're putting together in terms of curriculum, graduate qualities, services for students, the whole gambit. So, I think there has been a really informed student voice embedded throughout both the process and the ultimate delivery of Adelaide University, 

Shawna Hooton: And that group includes a number of international students, doesn't it, Brendan? 

Brendan Hughes: It does. Yeah.

Shawna Hooton: That's awesome. 

Shekinah Kannan: That's really, really cool, not something you hear of every day, but very refreshing to hear, I think, especially not just taking students' opinions into account for current practices, but for a whole new university, it's something quite special, and I'm so excited to know more about what their opinions have translated to later on in the episode when we talk a bit more about the whole student experience. But before we jump into that, let's reverse all the way to the very beginning, when students are looking at studying overseas and they're faced with these two big questions, “Which country should I go to?” and “What university should I join?” Based on your experience, Brendan perhaps you might want to start, what makes Australia stand out and gain its reputation as one of the most welcoming study-abroad destinations today. 

Brendan Hughes: Yeah, well, someone who's from Canada, where it's really cold, I think the weather is a big appeal in terms of Australia having great weather, having great beaches, having great lifestyle, the safety factor, the idea that there's a lot of different things that's pretty exotic, in the sense that you can see kangaroos where you may not be able to see them anywhere else in the world, except in the occasional zoo or safari. But in terms of higher education and international students, Australia has what no other GA country has, which is legislation that provides consumer rights to international students. So this means that universities are held to the highest standard to be able to make sure that when delivering promises, that international students are able to make sure that those are going to follow through. So that, to me, is the biggest point of difference if I was talking or giving advice to an international student to be considering these across the many options that they would have in terms of why Australia is actually the biggest point of difference, not just again, because it's nice or the weather's nice, or there are fun things to do, but also because the education is of high quality. They're ranked consistently in the top 100 for universities, delivering on the student experience, and being able to have that has led to the fact that we do also have a multicultural community within both Adelaide and Australia in a broader context. So in that respect, I think that it's really a great choice for students to know that they can get an outstanding education that's going to deliver on their goals of getting their career.

Shekinah Kannan: Shawna, I don't know if you want to throw anything in about the lifestyle there. 

Shawna Hooton: Yeah. I mean, as Brendon mentioned, him and I are actually both from Canada. We've only met recently, even though we live in the same city, but we thought it would be quite fun to have two Canadians talking to our friends out there today about Australian universities and welcoming in the international student cohort. Just like Brendan said I mean, we have the quality education, but we also have the beauty, the exoticism of having palm trees. When I rode my bike to work this morning, there were beautiful palm trees, I went past the Laura Keats, which are beautiful green parrots swooping around. So we really have it all here in a very inclusive country. Though, the multiculturalism is something that is a huge drawcard for me. Just being able to interact with people respectfully from all different cultures, experience food that I actually had never experienced back in Canada, we've had great Vietnamese food here in Australia that I hadn't experienced much of back home, and all the cultural festivals that I think we'll talk a little bit more detail about later on, that Australia as a destination is really something special,

Shekinah Kannan: Definitely. I mean, yeah, it sounds incredible. Now that a student has decided that Australia is the best country for them, obviously, what should they look out for when selecting a university? Compared to other options in Australia, what makes Adelaide University stand out as a launchpad for international students and the best place for a new chapter in someone's life? I'm sure both of you have great insights on that.

Brendan Hughes: Yeah, I might go first, if that's okay, Shawna, and then you can jump in. But I think again, for Adelaide University, aspiring to be the number one in Australia for graduate employment outcomes is where there's that alignment to what are people looking for from their degree and to be able to have, again, it's a combination of an outstanding educational experience, which we have the opportunity that no other university has to then reconceptualise with an industry informed, student-focused curriculum that you can't necessarily do along the way over transformative you actually get this opportunity to do, as we pivot from our current universities to Adelaide University. The amount of time and effort that's gone into that, we're talking 10,000 hours and 10,000 people, and lots of work being done that then delivers on that outstanding experience that's in the classroom, as well as combined with the activities outside the classroom. So being able to work with our student associations and have that student-informed voice, which you've obviously heard, is a very important part of how Adelaide University is positioning ourselves to then also be able to make sure that those career aspirations are fully informed, so we'll have work integrated learning in all of our undergraduate programmes. So that's something that isn't very common across all universities, but we're going to make that a point of difference with, again, the aspiration of making sure that our students will be able to get the careers and the jobs that they want to make themselves, their world and their communities a better place. So, in that respect, Adelaide University just has so much promise in terms of being able to want those people who are looking for that sense of adventure, the sense of excellence, the ability to come and study and be able to get a great job and work in one of the most livable cities in the world, have the experience of a lifetime. That's what I think Adelaide University is going to be able to make as a point of difference. But I think there's probably other things that Shawna can think of, and we might riff back and forth. 

Shawna Hooton: But yeah, did you see me taking a few notes there as you were speaking?

Brendan Hughes: Oh, I did maybe. Our listeners can't hear that. 

Shawna Hooton: I just wanted to go back to what you mentioned about the work-integrated learning being included in all the undergraduate programmes, that is huge. And I used to work at a university in Canada that had that embedded in a few programmes, and seeing the impact of that on students' lives was something so unique. Work-integrated learning for those of our listeners that aren't from the Australian context, are embedded internships and work experience that fits into the curriculum. So it's not just that someone gets a part-time job and goes in and does that and gains some skills, which is also useful, but it's they gain this work experience that can then come into the classroom, and they can speak about that work experience in the classroom, and then when they're in their work experience, they can speak about what they're learning in the classroom, and bring some of that new technology, those new ideas, into the workplace. So it's a real benefit for our local employers, as well as for the students and for the classrooms and the course coordinators. So work-integrated learning is one thing that I'm really excited about for the new university. Then just riffing off a little bit about what you talked about, Adelaide city being such a livable city, I think that is a term that we throw around a lot. We always explain it to new international students as being “the 20-minute city.” So everything is walkable within the central business district, so the CBD, within 20 minutes. So you can go from the university, which is on the North Terrace, all the way to the South Terrace, where there are beautiful parklands. You can walk there in 20 minutes. You can drive to any of our beautiful beaches in 20 minutes, or take the tram in 20 minutes. You can get to the airport in 20 minutes. Then on the other side, you can get to our hills, which have all of our beautiful wineries. So if you want to go and explore wine country, go do some tasting, maybe as part of one of our wine business programmes or our viticulture programme, we have all those experiences that are within 20 minutes. I mentioned earlier that I rode my bike to work this morning, so that's everything is very livable, the transportation, public transportation, and walking and cycling are really big here. It's really safe to do and it's really affordable. So those are elements that we really like to celebrate with our students when they come here, just knowing about that safety, that livability, but also all of the beautiful sights of the swimming beaches, surfing beaches, dolphins. I know I feel like I'm like a sales pitch for Adelaide, like I went swimming at the beach in the summer, and there were seals and dolphins swimming in the water with me. How beautiful is that? 

Shekinah Kannan: It's amazing.

Brendan Hughes: Just speaking of swimming with dolphins. There's a program at Kangaroo Island that you can go and swim with dolphins, and you jump off a boat and they come back and forth. I would put that in the top five things that I've done in my life. 

Shekinah Kanan: I love that.

Brendan Hughes: You know the fact that those are at your doorstep here, again point of difference? 

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, definitely. That was all incredible. But I think one thing that stood out to me, actually, a couple of things, is that the accessibility is great, especially for students who are looking to come to Australia to do more than study. If they're, you know, planning on getting a part-time job, knowing that the commute is not crazy and that they can do it all seamlessly. That's incredible. Another thing that was mentioned, the work-integrated learning, the industry, informed curriculum, that's all great. I know that a lot of that probably stems from the fact that the University of South Australia and the University of Adelaide both have incredible partnerships with big companies. Would be great if we could do a little name-drop, if possible, in terms of like, the companies that students could potentially work with during their studies. 

Brendan Hughes: Well, absolutely, I think we are fortunate. I know between the two universities, we'd have over 5000 partners that we'd be working with in terms of the combined amount of industry partners. For example, in South Australia, one of the largest, especially in health, is SA Health as part of the South Australian state government, which would host the, probably the largest amount of our student placements. But we'd have students who do placements with either small medium enterprises or be working on projects with Fortune 500 companies. So one of the institutes that we have at the University of South Australia is the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute and they work with the top 500 Fortune companies in terms of market research, and they're an industry leader in that space. That's another thing that we'll be bringing into Adelaide University. So when you have BAE as a defense sector leader, or if you have again Mars Incorporated in terms of the food and retail plus a number of the wine organisations that would be across both Australia and internationally, there's just a number of industry partners that we work with, both locally, nationally and internationally. 

Shekinah Kannan: Nice, that's great. Definitely a lot of options to go around. And yeah, it sounds like a pretty easy choice. For anyone who's listening in, confused about where they're going to go, Adelaide University does sound like a solid option. I guess for those who are sure of their decision and are sure of coming to Adelaide University, for any international student, one of the hardest parts about leaving home is how much they're going to miss their family, especially during the first couple months and you know, some international students have never even travelled abroad before or lived anywhere else other than their home country. So, while Adelaide is beautiful, incredible, safe, convenient, and the first few months will still be tough. You know, to get used to everything being different and new can sometimes be overwhelming as well. So how will Adelaide University help students settle into their new home, away from home?

Shawna Hooton: Are you all right if I start with this one, Brendan? Thank you. So I think part of the support for this transition needs to happen before students have even left their home country. So we're committed to having pre-departure information for students. Currently, we have some webinars that we offer, so my team and I, as well as some other support services, jump online for a couple of hours at different time periods that match time zones around the world and we're there to answer questions. So we provide a lot of information for students, really trying to set them up for success before they've even left their home country, and making sure that they have clear expectations, what it's going to be like as they are in the airport, going through immigration, going through different checks. So when they get there, they know what to expect. So when they get on the airplane and it says, “Make sure you're not bringing any fruit and vegetables in your suitcase,” we tell them about that level of detail in the webinars so that there's nothing that they're like, “Oh my gosh, I didn't know that.” Anything that's going to raise those stress levels, we really just try to deal with ahead of time. And when they arrive in the airport, we're really fortunate here in South Australia to have a state government department called Study Adelaide, and they support international students across the state, and they offer an airport welcome service. So they have student ambassadors from a number of different countries that are basically camped out at the airport for the whole month before each study period starts, and they're just there to welcome all of the flights of international students as they arrive. So students get this big, warm welcome. They get a welcome pack with information, including a phone card that they can use for the first couple of weeks they're here. So really practical support, but also feeling that they belong and feeling that they're really welcomed into the community here in South Australia is something that we're really grateful to be partnering with Study Adelaide to do. Then, of course, there's orientation. So once students arrive on campus, we'll have a big orientation programme. Both universities currently have really robust programmes, especially for our international students. It, again, includes not only presentations and workshops into all of the more serious things that students need to be aware of and keep safe about but then also a lot of social programmes. Currently, at the University of Adelaide, we offer campus tours so our peer mentors so they're student-to-student led campus tours, and I know something similar happens at UniSA, so we'll collaborate and come together and bring all of our student leaders to welcome the new cohorts of students as they enter Adelaide University. But we also take them for city tours. We take them on the tram so that they learn how to use the tram and the train to go on excursions out to local beaches. We take them to wildlife park so that they can get really excited about being here and have that very first cuddle with a koala in their first week, and all those selfies with kangaroos. I've been doing this for nine years, and I still am like, “I'll go on those trips. I'll go on those trips.”

Shekinah Kannan: You guys may not be able to see this, but Brendan is throwing up a heart right now, raising the roof as well.

Shawna Hooton: Just to see how the joy that international students have upon those first kangaroo and koala sightings. I think that mix is what we're planning for, that mix of practical support, information that's required, around policies, around student visa requirements, making sure they're staying really compliant the whole time that they're here, but also so that they know exactly who to turn to throughout each step of their academic journey. We also try to drip feed some information along the way, because we know it's pretty overwhelming in that first week to get information, so we try to give them a little bit then and then a little bit along the way, all mixed in with the fun stuff.

Brendan Hughes: One thing I'd probably add because again, as you mentioned, there are certain things that the University of Adelaide would do or we do currently and we're planning on doing for Adelaide University. So again, when students arrive at the airport, we'll actually pick them up and take them to wherever their accommodation is. And obviously, if they needed help finding accommodation, we would do that as part of that pre-departure piece. Then once they've arrived, we also do an international student welcome and we bring the students together, they get an official welcome from either the vice-chancellor or senior dignitary from the university. As well as what's important for your listeners and probably they would understand which Australia is home to the longest-living culture of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the world. So they've been around for 65,000 or 85,000 years in terms of being the local people, which is the Kaurna people. We have campuses also in Waite and Whyalla, so these are some of our regional South Australian campuses, but we actually have students across Australia with our online presence. So we do really make sure that we connect our students both, especially if students are coming from a particular home country with other students from their home countries, so they can have that sense of familiarity and safety and be able to say, “Well, what do you think or what's your advice?” There are large groups of students, so there's a large Indian community within Adelaide. So again, being able to understand where places to go to eat, have fun, movies, shows, whichever. It's really about connecting. So I'm not a psychologist or a social worker in terms of counselling but I used to be a camp counsellor, and the best thing to do is to actually make sure that people are busy, they have stuff to do, and they also know where to go if they need help. So those are the basics in terms of alleviating homesickness or making sure that if people are feeling a bit sad or missing home, because that's an understandable experience, is to make sure that, again, they have people here, they know how to connect with their family back home, and they can really focus on the task at hand, which is to be able to get settled, to be successful, and then to enjoy their student experience.

Shawna Hooton: Thanks, Brendan, for also mentioning counselling because we do have, and we will have in the new university, a really good counselling service for international students and they actually partner with us to run some homesickness workshops. Those tend to be really popular workshops, and we usually run them in about week four or five, once you think about the homesickness roller coaster or the culture shock roller coaster. Usually, students start off with a lot of excitement, and orientation is a fun time, but often in that kind of week four, week five time when the assignments start coming in and you may be missing some family functions back home, the homesickness can be a little bit hard, and I know I experienced it when I first came. So we've set up these workshops so students can share with each other about some really practical ways that they dealt with homesickness when they first arrived. Then our counselling team is also there to help guide them through some of the resources and support available to them. So it is something we take really seriously because we know it can have a big impact on students' wellbeing, but also on their academics if they're not feeling really secure in their studies. 

Brendan Hughes: We also know that we've been fairly successful. So both universities have participated in a programme through IGraduate, which is called the International Student Barometer, and it's a survey mechanism that goes up to international students around the world, and we've been able to get really positive feedback through that process in terms of asking our students how well we've done to welcome them, make them feel supported and set up for success. So, it's also an evidence-based approach.

Shekinah Kannan: Right.

Shawna Hooton The university has a dedicated international student support service for students, and we're all really approachable, and we have an open-door policy. So I was just telling my team, “My door is only closed right now because I'm in this podcast,” and I said, “Please don't knock so it doesn't disrupt it,” and they were all like, “What, we can always knock on your door. We can always come into your door.” That's something that we really pride ourselves in for how we want students to feel with us, is we do have that open door policy for them. They can drop in, they can come and see our support staff, our advisors and myself at our morning tea every week. So we're all out there with the students. We're not up in an ivory tower that people can't access. I love that about the work that we get to do here.

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, sounds like a really warm welcome for international students. I guess I can see why both the University of South Australia and the University of Adelaide both have really big numbers of international students. I guess it would be nice if we can talk a little bit more about how different backgrounds and cultures are not just made to feel at home but kind of like supported throughout the year or how they feel at home throughout the year. So I'd love to know a bit more about the events that go on throughout the year, and I guess just how students are encouraged to share their culture and experience new ones as well. 

Shawna Hooton: Great question and something that we're really passionate about. Both universities have a number of large cultural festivals that we coordinate with the partnership of our international students, and right now we're just getting ready for our mid-autumn festival. So tomorrow, the students have a big mid-autumn festival that they're planning with mooncakes and music and dance, and that will be out on the lawns. We have about 350 students coming. We have seven student clubs involved with it, and we have two casual staff, who are students, who are the organisers of it. Even though I say it's our event, it's very much their event, that they have invited us to come and participate. They're all in the workshop right now, cutting up little flowers and getting the mooncakes all packaged so that they're ready to give out. So it's a really exciting time for us all to come together and we have a number of those festivals. We always have a big Diwali festival as well, a Lunar New Year. Then there are also the community festivals that we take international students to, The Adelaide Fringe, it is the second biggest Fringe Festival in the world. We have a cabaret festival. Oz Asia festival is coming up next month, I think pretty soon. Like I said earlier, lots of multiculturalism in Adelaide, and the universities do a really great job in celebrating that and working with the students. We have another programme called Language and Cultural Engagement, and these are cultural kind of mini-festivals that we run fortnightly with about 150 students. Again, they're very much student-driven, so at the beginning of each year, we ask who wants to showcase their culture to the rest of the students, both local and international students. Then, from that list, we put together 10 of these dinner parties. So the students get a certain amount of money. We pay for hot food for them all to have a big buffet. Then they put on the performances. They teach other students how to speak some simple phrases in their home language, and it's a really fun, fun evening of learning and sharing with each other. That's something that we're keen to continue within the new university and know the commitment of Adelaide University to that multiculturalism and celebrating cultural diversity. Then we also give students opportunities to celebrate local culture and improve their English because we do know that feeling, that sense of belonging and feeling that you can come with your home language and your home way of seeing the world and engaging in academics, and it sometimes can be a bit overwhelming. So we offer a number of different workshops and the conversation clubs for students just to practice their English, to be matched up with a local volunteer so that they can hear someone's use of Australian. As a Canadian, I thought I wouldn't have any culture shock when I arrived. I'm not sure if it's the same for you, Brendan, but there are still quite a few phrases that catch me off guard that I wasn't familiar with. Well, yes, Australians have some fun ways of playing with language to make different idioms, and we offer those opportunities for students to meet with local retirees and local staff members who have Australian accents of all different kinds so that they can learn those races and just feel a bit more comfortable in the community.

Brendan Hughes: The other thing that Australians have is about Australian rules football. So just to be able to think of how to immerse yourself through sport in terms of Australian culture. Adelaide has two of the leading teams in the AFL sporting code, but we also have a number of cricket championships. So the Adelaide Ovals, one of the nicest cricket playing fields in the world. So I know, again, a lot of our students are from India, where cricket is part sport, part religion, and to be thinking of, you know, making sure there's avenues for that, plus the big bash and the more contemporary types of cricket. But then through all the different sporting clubs that we have, in terms of rowing or rock climbing and everything in between, there's just something for everyone, in terms of not just the sporting clubs, but then also the Student Association having, again, clubs that are either of interest clubs or potentially home country based in terms of either the Nepalese Student Association or again, they might be faith-based in terms of the Islamic Student Association and things like that, in terms of co-hosting with some of these international days of observance. 

Shekinah Kannan: Yeah, that's really, really cool. I think apart from, you know, students feeling at home, it's also so interesting and probably really riveting to experience so many different other cultures and get so much global perspective in the process. But obviously, yeah, it sounds like something that could be nice to get used to. Learning something new every single day. It sounds really cool. Another part of the fresh start, obviously, apart from, you know, getting used to your new surroundings and learning the language of the land, like another part of it, is getting used to a new academic system, which is obviously quite unique. Adelaide University, is quite unique in terms of its approaches based on everything I've read online, and I'm sure based on all the feedback that you've gotten from students, I'm sure something really interesting has come out from that. So do you guys have any examples of you know, or success stories of how your university has engaged students to adjust to Adelaide University's brand of innovative teaching?

Shawna Hooton: Yeah. Thank you. So in orientation, we do offer some workshops on adjusting to the academic system, because we recognise students coming from different cultures have very different ways that they've been brought up in education systems. The Australian education system and the universities that we both are currently at have a very interactive academic system, so there will be a lecture, but then there will also be a tutorial or workshop or seminar. These ways of learning, it is encouraged to be very interactive, and some students aren't used to that. They're used to having a much more passive learning environment. So in these sessions, we offer students the opportunity to see ahead of time what a tutorial might look like or a workshop might look like, and how they can get the most out of that teaching session. So we talk a lot about there's no dumb questions. Ask away, ask away, ask away. Go to the teacher's office hours. Really try to get clarity on anything that you don't understand in the moment, or in the office hours or in the online platforms offered for discussion, and really take the ownership of your own learning. So it's really beneficial when students are able to come to those sessions ahead of time, to get a bit of a feel for what it's going to be like, and just be encouraged to engage and take on that ownership but also during their whole academic journey, there's offerings for them in the academic learning space. So there's support with writing, with maths. We also have something at both universities called Peer Assisted study sessions. So we call them PASS. So the PASS sessions are run by current students who have already finished a course, and they meet with the students in the course for small group discussions. So every week, students can come and meet with basically a senior student for some tips and tricks on how to succeed in that class and just a bit of a review of the material that's gone over. So they're not teaching staff, they're students, but they have been successful previously in the class and are able to bring their success to that next group of students to learn how to engage with the material in the best way.

Brendan Hughes: Just to add on, I think in terms of sometimes when a student makes the choice to come to the university, there's a gap between the time that they enrol or apply and then the time that they actually arrive. So we also do have a pre-arrival orientation online modules that actually help students to be prepared for, as Shawna said, just to be able to expect in terms of studying or how to do referencing, and those elements of the university that will need to be able to start from the ground running, and then also, obviously, when they do get here, in addition to the things that Shawna mentioned, just to be able to know that the library across each of our campuses are places where students congregate and can ask questions, and libraries now are much different than the libraries I went to when I was growing up, where you can have food and you can have laughter and you can have noise, and sometimes you actually have access to more online books versus even just physical books, but that makes sure that students actually have access to the books that they need when they need it, to ensure that equity piece and access to the educational resources that they need. So there's definitely a lot of ways that we support students again through that piece, to be able to be a student, and then also think of the first six weeks, that first six months, and then that first year as a new university student or new uni student, and to be able to be ready for again, year two and beyond.

Shekinah Kannan: It definitely sounds like the theme of support persists throughout before students get there, once you're there throughout their studies and I'm 100% sure it lasts all the way up till the final bits of their education –

Brendan Hughes: It does.

Shekinah Kannan: – lasts in their final year as international students, you know, at another phase in their life, and that's graduation, and it's daunting, and they're about to enter the job market for the very first time as a professional. That's a whole journey starting all over again in itself, and I do know that both institutions currently offer a lot of support in that area. I'm curious to know a bit more about the services and resources that are being offered now, and what plans are in place for Adelaide University as well. 

Brendan Hughes: So I think probably actually just a comment as well when you mentioned support throughout. So we actually make sure that we don't wait till the final year to support international students, right? So it's actually about this idea that it's throughout. It's scaffolded. At UniSA, we've got career development learning, which is embedded in about 40% of our programmes. That career development learning makes sure that they get the discipline knowledge from the subject that they're studying, but they also get the ability to make sure that as they take that and they apply, whether that's in engineering or education, they can make sure that they have the transferable skills to move either between jobs or careers, and to make sure that they can take ownership for their careers and know that it's not just about what you know it's sometimes about who you know. So how you do networking, or how you prepare for jobs. Having that work-integrated learning allows especially international students to then have local contacts and individuals who can actually talk about their skills and experience. In addition to that, we also have a jobs on campus programme where, like you said, international students are looking for part-time jobs to be able to work throughout their studies, whether that's to contribute towards their life and activities, or to be able to send money back home, but to make sure that we've got jobs on campus that actually meets the needs of the students and is hopefully also aligned with their disciplines, so they're getting work experience in their field, I think is also very important. Then with their career services, we do work with the students and make sure that they have the tools and resources throughout their journey, but then also when they get towards that final year, be able to make sure that we've got career expos that helps students to be able to make sure that they're getting contact with future employers that we're able to ensure that those students can again apply successfully and get the coaching that they need to be able to make those applications. Again, it goes back to my comment earlier, which was having the individual figure out, do they want to stay here and do work, or do they want to apply that back in their home country. For example, you'd appreciate that we have a large number of Indian and Chinese nationals who would be studying with us, and so both universities have contacts in China and India to then be able to help those students who want to take their Australian degree and bring that back to their home country and gain connections with employers, and make sure that they can then find a fulfilling career for them, for their families and ultimately, for their future. Anything you wanted to add to that Shauna that I might have missed?

Shawna Hooton: I think you've covered everything, Brendon. I'm glad you mentioned the Career Expo. That's always a favourite time for me of the year on campus, just seeing all the students come together with hundreds and hundreds of professionals, and how excited the students are wearing their suits and looking the part while they're networking, and all the support that the Career Service offers ahead of time helping students prep for that networking, because that can be pretty daunting going into a networking situation with people that you admire and want to get job with one day, and so preparing them for that adequately, and then seeing the excitement on those days on campus with all of the industry experts and all of the students coming together has beautiful synergy. The only other thing I wanted to mention is we do all throw some pretty great parties for graduation. I know Adelaide University will be excited to graduate our first group of students. I'm really looking forward to that day. We do the caps and gowns and all of the pomp and circumstance, but then we also throw a good farewell party for our international students. This year, we're getting prepared to throw it at the wine centre. So we're really lucky here in Adelaide to have the National Wine Centre with thousands of the best wines from all over Australia. There's a big basically a conference centre there. So we rent it out for our international students, and we have our Deputy Vice-Chancellor come and last year, she helped to lead us in the macarena. Everyone was on the dance floor, and it was a great time. So just thought I had to mention the party piece as well. 

Shekinah Kannan: Definitely. 

Brendan Hughes: The other thing about the Career Expo that I forgot to mention was even though Adelaide city is one of the smaller capital cities in Australia, we actually have one of the largest career expos in Australia. So we do I think another Australian term I've learned is we punch above our weight in terms of the size of the city and that ability of making sure that we have employers that are able to attend. We sell out every year. We use the Adelaide Convention Centre because it's so big that we need to be able to have that as a venue, plus be able to do activities throughout the year. So even as recently as this week, we had a career connect, again work with the student association, brought in employers, had 250 international students be able to come on campus and be able to hear from employers, apply for jobs, learn what the sector is looking for. So there's activities happening throughout the year in terms of that career focus, which we know is so important to all of our students, especially international students. 

Shekinah Kannan: Definitely. I do love the element of support being available for anyone no matter what their aspiration is, not just whether they want to work in Australia or if they want to go home or if they want to go to another country, someone is always around to make sure that they achieve whatever their dream is. That's really, really cool. If I had to do it all over, I definitely know where I'm going.

Brendan Hughes: Awesome. We would love to have you and it's never too late, Shekinah.

Shekinah Kannan: The whole experience honestly sounds like it's appropriate for anyone, whatever a fresh start means to them. Someone who's just graduated high school, or someone who's looking to start life abroad with education as a pathway, or someone who's looking to change their career entirely, it sounds like this experience is fitting for just about anyone. So I have faith in myself that one day, if the time comes, I know where I'm going.

Brendan Hughes: You can look us up.

Shawna Hooton: We welcome you with open arms. 

Shekinah Kannan: Definitely, you definitely will, because this whole episode was about me being welcomed with open arms. It really does I guess, all in all, it sounds like Adelaide University is setting a new standard for supporting international students, and I really do hope that we get to cover more of it when the university is completely up and running, and I can't wait to see and hear what that sounds like. So, a huge thank you to both of you, Brendan and Shawna, for joining us today and walking us through Adelaide University and how it offers really an incredible environment for students ready to take on those big firsts. 

Brendan Hughes: Thanks Shekinah

Shawna Hooton: Thanks for having us.

Shekinah Kannan: Thank you both so much for joining me today. So, to all our listeners, if you're considering studying abroad, Adelaide University should be at the top of your list. To learn more about it, visit adelaideuni.edu.au, and follow them on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and TikTok under the username AdelaideUni. And of course, if you love this episode, don't forget to subscribe to the Extra Credit podcast. We've got more inspiring stories and expert advice coming your way. But of course, feel free to share your thoughts and episode ideas with us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok under the username Study International. Thanks for tuning in and until next time, take care and keep learning. 

For this episode of the “Extra Credit” podcast series, Study International speaks to Lizzie Sergeev, on the knowledge, skills and opportunities she gained from her MEng in Aerospace Engineering and PhD in Robotics and Autonomous Systems from Surrey.