Greg Hickman: It's such a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. We are really excited today to hear from you about, specifically, you have grown your team remotely and I'm so fascinated by this. It's something that a lot of people are having to do as a result of pandemic and it's not by choice. But you've grown your team remotely by choice. Talk to me about making that decision.

Greg Hickman: Yeah, I mean, when I got started, at least the influences that I had in business when I was launching my business, it was on the side. I launched it on the side and the help that I got at the time, not really thinking long-term, were remote. The first person that we really brought on was in Oregon, I'm in Colorado. She wasn't full-time, she was part-time, 20 hours a week. At that stage of the game, I have to be honest and say that I didn't know what it would look like. But as I started following other online entrepreneurs, it just seemed like that was the way that everyone was doing it. I'd come from traditional agencies and before I went out on my own I was on the client side so I was very familiar with going into the office and seeing everybody.

I think with the launch of the business, especially on the side, it was refreshing to not have to go into any sort of office. I have to say that there was a moment, and there sometimes still is a moment, where I wish we were all in person. We probably will eventually have some people in one location. But I've realized the power in the ability to operate autonomously and asynchronously as an entire team, because I get to focus on what I'm best at with zero distractions, and so does everybody else.

I started taking a lot of guidance, and I'll say direction, from the guys at Base Camp. They've written multiple books, Rework and a number of others. They had that hybrid. They had an office, you weren't required to go in there. I was like, "Well, we'll grow to that." But, in order to do that, you need to operate as if you were remote anyway, so that was kind of when I just put the stake in the ground and said, "That's how we're going to grow."

Speaker 1: I love it. How long ago was that?

Greg Hickman: Well, the business was formally launched, well, version one of the business was launched on the side in 2012, went to full-time in 2014, and then we completely flipped our model and our focus 2015 and 2017. 2015 is when the team really started growing from just beyond myself and a virtual assistant to like core team members. We went from one to two people to, at most we were 13 or 14 with a few independent contractors.

Speaker 1: So today, you've had a lot of ebbs and flows and this year you've scaled up to match demand because you've been growing really quickly. How many team members have you brought on just this year?

Greg Hickman: Yeah. As of April, we were three people and now we're, so we're recording this October-

Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah.

Greg Hickman: ... of 2020 and we're at 10.

Speaker 1: You've added 17 members in five minutes? Awesome.

Greg Hickman: Yeah. Since really the sales teams really, which was where we started, they were hired on the 30th of April and they started on the 1st of May. So, from may to now, we've added seven.

Speaker 1: Wow. The sales team is working out, I guess.

Greg Hickman: It is, yes.

Speaker 1: That's awesome. Well, tell me about recruiting in a remote work environment. You don't get to do face to face interview so much. How does your recruiting process go?

Greg Hickman: Yeah. Well, face to face via Zoom like this. We've been doing this for a long time. We're used to doing online meetings. When the pandemic happened that wasn't really any [crosstalk] to us. But from a recruiting perspective, it started out through different job boards. Like Lisa, who was my first real major hire, who started off on the fulfillment team, implementation account manager type role. She's now the head of operations and helps run the entire business. I found her on Upwork and it took 47 interviews to find her. I was about to hire somebody else and one application squeaked in, and I was like, "All right. Well, I'll just interview this person because it was on my calendar for that day," and it was Lisa. There was definitely no method to the madness on that one outside of I need help and I put a job description up and I interviewed as many people.

Now it's become more formalized. Thankfully, for a handful of the roles that we've needed, there have been, I don't want to call them recruitment companies, but I guess you can call them a recruitment company, but they specialize in finding, training, and grooming specific roles. For the sales team, we went through a company that basically is a two-sided marketplace. They have online training for sales reps, so they train sales reps and then they go find it companies that need sales reps and they have a matchmaking service.

Speaker 1: That's so cool.

Greg Hickman: [crosstalk] that's where we found basically our entire sales team. Then there is another service like that that is ... That company is called Coaching Sales, by the way, for anyone if they're curious. Then there was another company that we brought on Amanda, who started as my executive assistant and now she's become a sales coordinator and wears a bunch of other hats. But, there's a company called the Great Assistant. It's a very similar service.

Speaker 1: Cool.

Greg Hickman: They go and find former executive assistants, project managers that are looking for, in the beginning, part-time work virtually. We found Amanda through that. Those are great because when you don't have a interview process or anything formal, which we didn't at the time, they have all of that embedded. You're not only going to one of these services because they're going to find you the person, but they're bringing you three candidates and they've weeded out a bunch of the wrong ones. You're basically paying for their hiring process, you know?

Speaker 1: Right.

Greg Hickman: We borrowed their process by investing in each of these services that then brought us the candidates. We got to interview and select from the final three. That was how we did sales and initially the assistant. The last handful of hires have been more like, I think what you'll call traditional. Which is job description, post them out to job boards, field applications. For us, we basically, in our application, we ask a couple of specific questions that require someone to pay attention to details, and if they don't they're immediately removed from the pool of applicants. That gets us from hundreds of applications down to a much more reasonable number. Then from that number, we're able to look at applications and then basically schedule, we did two rounds of interviews, one with myself and then one with the rest of the team. Probably what most people that end up listening to this are used to. But maybe that little gauntlet process of having them actually do an exercise in order to make it to the next round, is something that has always served as well.

Speaker 1: Gotcha. Tell me about systems for working remotely. I'm talking logistics here because you don't walk down the hall and hand someone a piece of paper. Tell me about the systems that you've had to implement that help your workflow be remote.

Greg Hickman: Yeah. We've been through pretty much every project management software that exists with a lot of failure. I'm not a software, as much as I love software, I love it too much that I can't stick with any one. So, really, the last handful of years it wasn't really based off any specific project management tool. It was actually really powered through weekly meetings and with Google doc and spreadsheets. Up until probably earlier this year we started using a tool called Notion, which we've now fallen in love with, and we've moved a lot of the stuff that was in Google Docs, et cetera, into that. But everything works for us off of our weekly team meeting. Every Monday, pretty much every team member shows up for the team meeting, and we follow, which has morphed from a framework that I learned from the book Traction.

Everybody quickly shares wins, personal and business, then we run through an agenda, we look at client wins, and then we basically say like, "This is what I'm working on and committing to this week," and everyone shares their top level commitments. At the end, there's an area where anyone at any time throughout the week can add to this agenda of, it's called IDS. Identify, discuss, and solve. If someone has an issue that's not urgent, we put it on that document and when we get to that part of the agenda sometimes there's nothing to discuss and sometimes there's a long laundry list of things that happened that someone has identified and now we need to quickly discuss it and figure out what the next step is in the solution. That usually will turn into tasks for someone or maybe even a follow-up meeting. But that's pretty much been that meeting.

Then every Wednesday and Friday we have a mini team huddle where we check in on the progress of those commitments. It's been that meeting cadence that has been really useful because I get to hear what everybody else is working on and they hear what I'm working on, and if we're stuck we only go a day or so before we're chatting again and unblocking whoever's blocked.

Now, backing up a little bit, every quarter we pretty much create goals for the quarter that the weekly meeting tasks and our commitments should roll up to. We have a few key things that we're trying to achieve every quarter. The things that I'm expecting to hear as the owner are like do those tasks align with the goals that we had stated at the beginning of the quarter? Yes or no. If no, then I'm obviously asking questions. But thankfully, everyone's been pretty focused. I think everybody enjoys being able to work remote, so they understand the importance of these meetings that, "Hey, if I can be clear and specific and transparent on these meetings, that's the less back and forth that we're going to have in Slack or whatever project management tool, and I get to do my thing, which is what I want to be doing anyway."

Nobody wants to spend a crap ton of time on meetings, but as we've grown we do have more meetings. But that's really been the core thing is just like, "Tell me what you're going to do. Did you do it? Are you stuck? Did you complete it? Yes or no. And iterate."

Speaker 1: Awesome. Just to recap. Explain your meeting rhythm again. How many times a week, or quarterly, or it's like-

Greg Hickman: Yeah. Every Monday is a one-hour long team meeting. The same team gets together on Wednesday and Friday, 15 minutes. Usually is about 15, no longer than 30. Now we're at the stage where we have a daily 15 minute sales huddle. It really is 15 minutes. That's just the sales team. I have a weekly 30-minute meeting with my assistant, who is that Amanda person, like 10% of her time is assistant role. We just sync up once a week, 15, 20 minutes on a couple of things. Then we now have a one-hour marketing meeting on Mondays as well. Mondays, to me, is like, "Let me equip and weaponize the entire team." Then we talk a lot less throughout the week. My Monday looks like 15 minute huddle, an hour management meetings. I forgot that one. Then a 45-minute team meeting and an hour marketing meeting and a 15-minute admin meeting, like the assistant meeting. Then outside of that it's the 15-minute sales huddle Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then Wednesday and Friday is the 15 to 20 minute team huddle. That's pretty much the meetings outside of one-off one-on-ones as needed.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That sounds like a lot of meetings, but I imagine that having those regular, even just 15-minute things help you avoid having to put extra, we just put hour-long meetings on the calendar when we're unclear about something. Is that the strategy?

Greg Hickman: Yeah. I mean, one, we don't try to tackle a lot, so that helps. But-

Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, what do you mean by that? "We don't try to talk a lot."

Greg Hickman: We don't try to, in a 90-day window, we're really only working on three to five projects in the grand scheme of things. Our meetings are pretty focused and as our company has grown, unlike maybe some of the folks that listen to this, we don't have a lot of, we don't manage clients like a traditional agency, where we're having a lot of meetings with clients and then we have to report back to the different departments of the company. We have a client tracking system that we cover in the team meeting. We just, actually, this will be week two. We now have a client success meeting that's an hour long with all the the client success-related folks. That's every other week. We don't really need it to be every week yet.

But I've found that the shorter team meeting that is high-level declaring what you're working on, allows me to know if everyone's working on the right things. Then the department-type meetings, if you will, don't need to be as frequent and/or necessarily as long in order to be effective. Obviously we communicate in between using Slack and then we have a lot of project templates, so to speak, inside of Notion, where there's asynchronous communication happening. Like, "Hey, here's the thing that I said I was going to get done. Assign it to somebody else and now they're working on it." We see the flow of work inside of that tool as well. But really it's just those 15-minute meetings. Because we just pull up the list of the 10 things that you said you were going to do, or five, or whatever, and I can see if Lisa's checked those off and she'll tell me why she hasn't, or if she expects to get them all done. We can navigate from there.

Speaker 1: You guys are all working in one, you can see other people's to-do lists essentially-

Greg Hickman: Yes, yes, yes, yes [crosstalk 00:00:18:19]-

Speaker 1: ... remotely. That's huge. You're not only talking, but you can also see each other's lists in each other's calendars. That makes a lot of sense. If you could give a piece of advice to people who are attempting to work remotely, but are trying to get it organized. What advice would you give to someone who's trying to get their business more efficient remotely?

Greg Hickman: Yeah. You can't operate the same way as you would when they were next to you. If you want to be successful, now, actually I should caveat this with if this is just temporary, I probably wouldn't worry all that much, if you're intending to go back to the office. But if you're truly like, "Wow, this is nice and we might actually move to remote full-time," and/or you foresee your situation being a long one, I do think, one, read the book Rework and everything by the guys at Base Camp. They have a whole podcast on it as well, about remote work. Actually, one of the books is called Remote. Sorry. Read Remote first and then Rework. But I think the key thing is understanding and knowing how to utilize asynchronous communication.

Whatever communication tools you choose to use, make sure that there is a standard and that there are rules for how and when to use them. So, like I said, we have this Google doc that has the weekly team agenda. If something can be handled on that meeting and is not urgent, I go to that document and I add an item to the list. Everybody has access to that document so they're doing the same thing. If I'm working on my own on Tuesday and I realize that there was something that I want to talk to Lisa about and it's not urgent and it can wait until Monday, it's not a big issue. I've now trained myself to go put it on that document and I know we'll talk about it on Monday.

Slack, most people that use Slack just treat it like a real conversation, but we actively use the snooze label. We close Slack. Slack doesn't need to be open all day. Everyone on our team optimizes their day around certain efforts, like deep work time. When you're in deep work time Slack is closed. I can't use Slack as if it were walking up to someone because they might have Slack off. It took a little bit of time to figure that out, but it really is defining, "Here's how we communicate. Here's when we communicate. Here's how we're going to use these tools so that we honor them and that we aren't doing the virtual version of knocking on the cubicle every five minutes when you have a question." Because that's really disruptive, especially if you have creative or developers, and people that are doing that level of work. You want them to be Bluetooth headphones, zenned out on their stuff, and not interrupting them.

With that being said, I would probably, step one is define how and when you're going to use each of those communication tools. Two, is then orchestrate and organize your calendars so that you have blocks of time to jump into those tools to ask the questions you have, to answer the questions that might be asked of you, so that you can then turn them off. Maybe that's three times a day for you. In the beginning maybe it needs to be five. Whatever your role is will probably dictate that. But I would literally schedule 30-minute blocks of like, "Hey, in the morning, I'm going to check everything. Make sure no one needs me. Shut it off. Go do the thing that you said you were going to do. Maybe before lunch, check it again. Before you leave, check it again." Whatever that number is that makes you feel comfortable, it'll probably be higher in the beginning. But work towards where it's like scheduled into your day and you're communicating also in a way where you're not going to hear back from people on certain things.

Yeah. I guess those are the two major steps. But it boils up to figure out a synchronous communication and embrace it as much as possible. Because you'll get more done. It'll just feel awkward in the beginning.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we're all of us are experiencing the awkwardness, but you guys have worked through that. That's really helpful. I'm hearing rules and tools. Like, "Use your tools," and you have rules that you use those tools with. I love it. Well, Greg, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Greg Hickman: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: If people want to know more about what you do, where should they go and find more information?

Greg Hickman: You can check out altagency.com, and/or check out my YouTube channel. We have hundreds of videos talking about helping agencies grow. Just search for Greg Hickman on YouTube and you'll find it.

Speaker 1: Awesome. Thanks Greg.

Greg Hickman: Thank you.

WEBSITE: CreatingCulture.co/podcast

RESOURCE MENTIONED IN THE PODCAST: 

Our points of culture: 

https://thepremieradvisorygroup.com/our-culture/

Welcome to Creating Culture, the podcast where we talk about building a culture that fosters creativity and big ideas and attracts and retains top talent. This is one of the biggest issues that we get requests for help with, is to make companies look like a cool company to work for. I'm Andrea Engstrom. I'm the president of Bajillion Agency. We're a branding and advertising agency. And with me today I have Earl Kemper. He's a master business coach with ActionCOACH Business Coaching. And he's the founder of the Premier Advisory Group of companies, which includes Bajillion Agency and Motorbike Films. And then Action Coach and a handful of other companies. 

Earl is a coach, a business broker and a leadership trainer. But I have to brag for just a second because he's also my dad. Earl has over the last 36 years, he has coached more than 1600 businesses.Multiple times been the global coach of the year and America's coach of the year and the world's number one business coaching organization, which has offices in what, 75 countries or more right now?

Earl Kemper:

86.

Andrea Engstrom:

86 countries. Holy cow, they're still growing. So, but Earl's been a great mentor obviously in my life, but also has grown several businesses over the years and learned a lot of things. But one of the things that has been most impactful that he's taught me recently in the last couple of years, is around this idea of the ideal team player. And this is a book that a lot of folks on our team have read or have learned something about. It's a book by Patrick Lencioni. Earl, thank you for joining me today.

Earl Kemper:

Well, thank you for having me.

Andrea Engstrom:

Absolutely. So, let's talk for a second about what are those three essential virtues, first of all and what does that look like?

Earl Kemper:

Well, before we go there, I think the first thing that goes through my mind is to understand that one of the biggest challenges that people have, and in all the years that I've been coaching, I've recognized it's getting the right people on the bus. And not only getting the right people on the bus, but continuing to keep them where we want them to be in regard to our culture. So if you don't get the right people on the bus, it impacts your culture. And if you don't have an ongoing approach to building on your culture, it can be detrimental to the growth of the business. And as you said, I've been doing a lot of coaching. I've been coaching for 36 years. And one of the key components to having a great organization or a great business is to have a great team.

And so what we did was we researched over the years all of the different possibilities that have worked well for us in working with clients and helping them build that culture. And interestingly enough, a number of those ideas and thoughts that we have had were put together in a great book as well, called The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni. What we learned was that many times people would be struggling in their business and they think it was because they weren't doing some things right. And sometimes that was very, very true, but other times what the real issue was, they didn't have the right people on the bus. 

One great example of that, we were working with a dentist office and they had a couple of managers that we interviewed. And when we began to look at those managers and as we talk today more about the ideal team player, you'll get a picture in your mind. But what we came to realize, they just didn't fit the culture. So we had to help them find a different place to work and recruit the right people on the bus. Now, the amazing thing was that the company doubled in 18 months and a big reason for that was because we adjusted what needed to be adjusted in that team.

Andrea Engstrom:

Oh, that's incredible. Okay. So what are those three virtues that are essential in an ideal team player?

Earl Kemper:

So the first virtue that's essential is called humility or to be humble. And when any person is humble and they have the focus on the company and the culture, that is a tremendous positive impact to everyone around them, the team, the clients, or customers, as well as the overall company. And then another real key characteristic is to be hungry. Now, many people are hungry for themselves, but are they hungry for the company? You need to be humble and get your ego out of the way. You need to be hungry, meaning that you're working towards the vision and mission and with the culture of the company. And then you need to be what he refers to as smart, but then he refers to as “people smart.” So it's not intellect. It's really being able to discern how people are feeling, thinking, and from what they're saying, what they really mean.

Andrea Engstrom:

Yeah. So it's not how good you are at math. It's emotional intelligence.

Earl Kemper:

Yeah. It's a form of that. Yes it is.

Andrea Engstrom:

Okay. Okay. So let's talk about how can you tell if somebody is missing one of those qualities?

Earl Kemper:

Well, one of the things we did is we took some of the information that he had, which gave us a list of about 18 different characteristics of people. Six related to being humble, six related to being hungry and six that are related to being people smart. And each time we did that, we could look at our company, personally and say, how are we doing? How would we rate ourselves in each of these six areas under each of these three virtues? And if there are areas that need to be improved, then we help them by giving them direction on how they can be more humble, more hungry and more people smart. And if it's just not something that you can improve, you may need to make a change in your team member.

Andrea Engstrom:

I see. So, you evaluate that person or you look at those qualities or however he lists those things and you're looking for specific things and individuals. Now, what would be an indicator in a real life situation that someone on your team may be maybe lacking in one of those virtues?

Earl Kemper:

That's a really good question because one of the real tell tale signs is when someone is wanting to take credit for all the successes of a company, rather than recognize that the team brought about the success or that the company brought about success.

Andrea Engstrom:

Okay, so that would be an indicator or an obvious evidence that someone is lacking in humility. One thing that I've noticed before, and occasionally, and part of this is what we'll call it being people smart. But have you ever met somebody and you're trying to have a meeting and then during that conversation, you realize that they're not going to say yes to it unless they feel like it was their idea.

Earl Kemper:

Yes.

Andrea Engstrom:

Right? We've all met people like that, where you go, Oh, okay. Well, I have to now listen for them to say something that sounds like what we're wanting to accomplish here and then give them the credit for thinking of it. So that they'll go along with what we know is the right thing to do. And it's like, if it's not their idea, they don't want to do it. That's that would be an example of, of noticing when somebody is lacking in that humble virtue. Right?

Earl Kemper:

100%. It's not just that they're on an ego trip. Sometimes it’s just that they have self-interest above team interests.

Andrea Engstrom:

Yeah. And there's a fine line because there's nothing wrong with wanting to recognize individual accomplishment. I mean, we enter things to get awards where, when my coach Anthony, his number is in the top five coaches in the world, I want to say, yay, go. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that idea of looking at what's happening and saying, I have to take, I have to be the one that gets the credit for that, as opposed to deflecting and saying, this was really a team effort because we all know, especially in the agency world, we all know that none of this happens without the right team members in place to do it. But it is all a team effort. Right?

Earl Kemper:

Well, ideally it should be that the team is winning together. It isn't about any one individual winning more than another individual. And as long as the team thinks that way on an individual by individual basis, you're creating an organization of ideal team players. But when you have that person that just wants to take credit for everything and you know what I mean? You see that in companies from time to time. It just isn't in them to give others credit.

Andrea Engstrom:

Now what's tricky is you might have a team member who came from a culture where that was actually the only way to succeed, or that was actually celebrated in some way. If you were the one who was receiving the credit for things that meant you were the next in line for an important thing, or to get a pay raise, or the person who was in management over you was kind of coaching you on how to work that system. And so that was actually the values of that company were evidenced by how they were helping people to climb that ladder. So there are some companies that don't practice this as a culture. So that can be really tricky when you're recruiting somebody who's not coming from a work culture where this is valued.

Earl Kemper:

Well, I think one of the most important things that you're bringing up is you have to develop the culture with who you have right now. So step number one, when you're trying to create the ideal team players in your office is to let them know what that looks like. So if everyone knows what the ideal team player is supposed to be they can at least be working towards and striving towards that goal.

Andrea Engstrom:

Oh yeah. How do you help people to know, how do you help your team know what the ideal team player looks like? You just tell them, or what do you?

Earl Kemper:

You describe to them as clearly as you can that a person who has at least some level of these areas, each and every one of them, is really going to be easier to work with as an ideal team player than say one that only has one. Maybe someone is humble, but they're not hungry and “people smart.” Maybe they're hungry, but they're not humble and they're not smart with people. So what they have to do is to work on the area that they're just not very good in.

Andrea Engstrom:

And if it's more than one area, then you may really have problems, right?

Earl Kemper:

If you end up in a situation where two out of the three are just not going to work out very well, chances are it's going to be very difficult to turn that person around. And if you have three to begin with, they're just not good in any of the three, I mean, you probably already knew that. These are common sense enough issues that if you feel like people are just not a good fit, you probably already know they're not a good fit.

Andrea Engstrom:

But maybe you don't know why.

Earl Kemper:

And you may not know why.

Andrea Engstrom:

I remember when we were first learning this concept, it became so clear in past team members, we're like, that's why they weren't a good fit. We couldn't even put our finger on it before, but we were like... And it was so hard because sometimes there's people on your team that you like and you love and that you even call, like we treat each other like family. And so when there's something that you just can't even put your finger on that's missing, you just know that sometimes it's evidenced in this way, and that doesn't feel like it's a good fit. And sometimes people will say, well, I just felt icky. Or the rest of us in the room went well, that's not right. But that person didn't realize it wasn't right. And that was an indicator that it wasn't a good culture fit. 

Now we've talked about being humble. I want to talk about being hungry for a second. How do you spot it or what would be some indicators in everyday situations that would say someone is not hungry or that they're lacking in that idea of being hungry that we're calling part of our ideal team player virtues?

Earl Kemper:

One of the things that stands out is somebody that works eight to five wants to leave at 10 til five. That's not an indicator that they're very hungry. Someone is not willing to work extra if it's necessary to achieve the goals of the team. Someone who's not willing to work with other team members to help them to achieve more is probably not very hungry. And people who are not willing to maybe do some of the things that "are not their roles and responsibilities." So they say well, that just isn't my job or that isn't my job or that isn't my job. And there's any number of things people could say that about.

Andrea Engstrom:

Yeah, that's one I remember. We've heard that before and we go, oh, nothing burns me up like when somebody says "that's not my job." We say, well, that's not a good culture fit. Whatever it is that somebody needs help with, we jump in and we help each other out. One of the more sort of insidious forums of lacking in hunger can be when someone does what they are asked to do and they do it happy and they're hardworking and that sense, and they'll do whatever they're asked to do, but that is all.

Earl Kemper:

Yeah. They don't have any initiative to see what they can do more. Now, sometimes that's just a communication. You sit down and say to that person, Hey, I'm very pleased with the fact that you do this and do this and do this. However, one of our goals of our company is to begin to think outside the box, to be creative, to think of things you can do that might even enhance our position as a company that are your own ideas. And as long as your company allows for creativity and allows kind of an ability to not be too tight in their rules, you open up the door for the people who have that initiative and desire to make a difference in your company. So that's a little bit less of a concern as that person who will just do everything to get by.

Andrea Engstrom:

One of the things that we talk about quite a bit around here at Bajillion and the Premier Advisory Group, we talk about this idea that there are no micromanagers. There is no one here that is going to be watching over your shoulder and making sure that you're doing all the things. We expect that people self-manage and what we're too lean of a team to have babysitters, is what we call it. It's like if you can't complete your work and look for the next thing to do and if you're, if you're finishing up or you have questions or whatever, if you're not taking that initiative to ask for more or to ask for help or to have help understanding something, or even just taking initiative to say, how can we do this better? How can we be more efficient? Then those for us are also indicators that it's just not going to be a right longterm fit.

Andrea Engstrom:

And that can be really hard because they can be very, very pleasant and eager to please even. And really awesome in other ways for the culture but just consistently lacking. And what we'll find is that when somebody doesn't have that initiative, other people with high initiative will see what needs to be done and they will just do it because they have high initiative. And they're not that person's manager and so the people around them kind of start picking up what ends up being kind of like picking up the slack for somebody. Even though they may not even realize that that's what's happening. So you mentioned communication, that's a really, really critical piece of it. Tell me, what do you believe is the hardest quality to develop if it is lacking?

Earl Kemper:

Probably one of the hardest qualities is just hungry. Because when people are not hungry, it's hard to get them to become hungry. And somebody is not humble and they're getting the feedback and they have some people's smarts to be able to receive that feedback, chances are they know it in their heart of hearts that they need to be less prideful or less on an ego trip and more team focused. You can help that person to really get greater clarity about humility and people smart is something you can teach people through a number of different approaches. You can utilize things like Disc. You can utilize things like Strength Finder. You can use a lot of different Colby, all kinds of different approaches to help them become more aware of where they need to become more people smart. Hungry though, you got to think about it from a standpoint of whoever they are today could have been what was formed in them when they were seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old. So they've created not just a habit, but a lifestyle of not really being hungry with the things that they do in the workplace. And so that's a tough one.

Andrea Engstrom:

That's a really good distinction too. You said with the things they do in the workplace, because somebody might be hungry, just not for their work or their career. So we've seen that. We've seen that before, too, where you might have somebody who you go, man, they've accomplished incredible things in their music career or in their writing outside of work or just doing something brilliant, like as an artist or something. But then when they show up to work, we're like, man, where's all that juice that we saw? The reason that we thought you would be such a good fit and then we're not seeing it here. And they don't actually maybe even have a desire to have that for their work because they save their hungry for the thing that they're actually passionate about in life. And that can be a really hard thing.

Earl Kemper:

It's very important when you're dealing with team members to help get them to connect with your purpose and help them to find an area in your company they have a passion for, for that reason. So a lot of people are, for better use of the term, they're just sitting in the wrong seat of the bus. And so they don't have a passion for it. And that might be the company's fault, not the individual's. On the other hand, there are situations where truly that person just never will be passionate about anything that involves work or labor. They just won't. And that's why it's so hard to transition someone into being hungry if they just aren't. I think that's probably why that's the hardest one to shift.

Andrea Engstrom:

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I like how you talked about connecting people with your purpose and I think a lot of our, especially our young workforce coming in today, wants to know that they're doing work that matters, that makes a difference. And so being able to help them to see how whatever is that you do matters and is doing something to make people's lives better, can help with that idea of helping them feel hungry for the work that they're doing. Because it may just be that their motivations are not the same as the owner or the founder of the company's motivations, but they can find something in the work to be passionate about because of the purpose that's being presented. So we've just got a few minutes left here. Tell me what would you do or what should an organization do if they're taking measures to help people grow or to help them be successful, but it's just not working out? What if they're a really good person, they're pretty good in a couple of areas and everybody really likes them. What do you do?

Earl Kemper:

A lot of times when someone is very humble and they also have people smart, they're just lovable. Everybody likes that person. One of the things Patrick Lencioni refers to is that is a lovable slacker. And that's a good term because that person is one we tend to hang on to longer than we should. Just because they're likable, just because they kind of light up the room, but they're just not getting work done. So what you have to do first of all to address that is you have to have some type of a system in place for evaluating team members. In other words, you have to be able to know whether that person is fulfilling the results that are needed in the role that they're in, their skills.

Earl Kemper:

And if you do that, it's much easier than to look at it and say, let's say they have key performance indicators, one or two that you really watch. Well, that lovable slacker isn't going to meet those key performance indicators. So it's just a matter of time that you're going to have to make a change. Don't hang onto people too long. Most of the time we know when they are someone that lacks humility or lacks people smarts. And that's a big, big issue. Most of the time in the first few weeks, we just know thy are not a good fit for the company. But someone that's not hungry is harder. They can kind of hide themselves a little bit if you don't have a system for evaluating their progress as they go.

Andrea Engstrom:

All right. Now, Patrick Lencioni has been very generous. He provides a lot of tools that he makes available for free. We're going to be having links to those tools on the podcast website. And we're also going to pick up this conversation again for part two, because what I want to talk about with you next time is how to approach the hiring process. You've taught us some really great things over the years, so I want to hear about the hiring process that you coach your clients to use and how the ideal team player plays into that. So that people can kind of connect some dots and think about how they might work in some of that process into their own hiring process and know how to watch for these qualities in a new hire. So we'll talk about that next time. 

Earl, thank you so much for being the guest on my show today. And we'll look forward to talking to you soon about the hiring process. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

It's been my pleasure. I've really enjoyed it.

Andrea Engstrom:

All right. Thanks, friends! Thanks for joining us.