And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

• Here is a video of the panel discussion.
• To learn more about our panelists, you can see their websites
  • Becky Tracy
  • Kate Barnes
  • Pete Sutherland
  • Rodney Miller

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click here to download it directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Bill Tomczak in action:

• Visit Bill’s collection of contra dance articles at his Musaique website.
• Head over to The Latter Day Lizards website.
• To see the Latter Day Lizards playing, check out this video of them at the Atlanta Dance Weekend in 2012, and here you’ll see them playing at the Concord Scout House.
• See Bill play drum, clarinet, and saxophone at the 1994 Old Songs Folk Festival
• Here’s Devil’s Dream/Opera Reel played by Bill, Pete Sutherland, and Bob McQuillen at the Ralph Page Dance Legacy Weekend in 2004. Even though you can only hear Bill in this video, we couldn't resist sharing it because of the charming Bob McQuillen moment at the beginning!
• Watch BLT play Romany Polka at the 2017 Vintage Dance Weekend in Cincinnati.
• Check out this virtual concert with Bill in the Portland Megaband in 2021.

Odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Visit the website for the Folk Arts Center of New England.
• One of the greatest carriers of the Scottish fiddle music tradition, Alasdair Fraser.
• Definitely check out the computer generated Harry Potter chapter, you’ll be glad you did!
• Vladimir’s Steamboat from Fiddle Fever
• Footage of the dance Vallimont’s Steamboat, played to a different tune
• Big John McNeil from Fiddle Fever with multiple harmony parts and multiple modulations.
• Some folks mentioned in this episode have their own Contra Pulse episode. Check them out: Mary Lea, Kate Barnes

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click here to download it directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Keith Murphy in action!

• You can read more about Keith and his projects, and buy his albums and tune books at his Black Isle Music
• Watch Keith Murphy and Hanneke Cassel perform “Clamanda" at Takoma Park, Maryland, in 2012. Learn more about Hanneke on her website.
• See Keith on piano with Nightingale during a 2008 contra dance in Tacoma. And here’s Nightingale at the Spring LEAF dance in 2010. You can check out Nightingale’s albums here.
• Here’s a video of Wild Asparagus playing at the Guiding Star Grange. You’ll see Keith on penny whistle at 1:55 and 4:38, and piano at 6:40 and 8:43. Here’s another video of Wild Asparagus, with Keith on the guitar.
• Here is a link to the 2004 album Other Side of the Tracks, by Assembly, and the 2002 EP The January EP. You can read more about Assembly here.
• Enjoy this video of Keith Murphy playing in Childsplay at The National Heritage Museum in 2007.
• Several of Keith’s tunes were used in Ken Burns’ documentary series on the Roosevelts. You’ll find them all in this episode! Fast forward to 1:43:48 to hear a poignant speech by Eleanor Roosevelt, leading into Keith Murphy’s tune, The Black Isle at 1:44:15.
• Keith has been the music director for the WGBH Boston Public Radio’s annual Celtic Sojourn St Patrick’s Day concerts since 2014. You can listen to the 2019 concert here, which features Keith!

Odds and ends mentioned in this interview

• To hear more Scottish Dance music, check out this video of Bobby Brown and the Scottish Accent at the 2010 Ottawa Ball! And here you can listen to their recording of Kiss me quick, my Mither's coming / Bonny Jocky.
• Learn more about Scottish Accordion player Freeland Barbour who Keith played with at Pinewoods.
• Charlie Lennon was one of Keith’s influences for Irish style piano. Here’s a video of Charlie Lennon on piano with Sean McGuire on fiddle.
• Keith learned a lot about vamping styles and medleys from Susie Petrov.
• Visit Oliver Schroer’s website here, the great fiddle player who Keith played with.
• Learn more about fiddler Viveka Fox and flutist Chris Layer.
• Many folks mentioned in this interview have their own Contra Pulse episode: David Cantieni (part 1, part 2), George Marshall, Becky Tracy, and Jeremiah McLane.
• Listen to Kerry Elkin’s Soir Et Matin here.
• Here is a video of the Horse Flies at the 2009 Dance Flurry.

Over the last thirty years, Phil has done extensive research in the area of Appalachian dance, and his book Hoedowns, Reels, and Frolics: Roots and Branches of Southern Appalachian Dance (University of Illinois Press, 2015) tells the story behind the square dances, step dances, reels, and other forms of dance practiced in southern Appalachia. A 2017 inductee to the Blue Ridge Music Hall of Fame, Phil teaches traditional music and dance at Warren Wilson College in Asheville, North Carolina, where for twenty-five years he served as coordinator of the Old-Time Music and Dance Week at the Swannanoa Gathering.

Click here to download a transcript of this episode.

Music and soundbites featured in this episode (in order of appearance):

• “Blizard Train” – “Blizard Train,” Ralph Blizard & the New Southern Ramblers (June Appal Records, 1989) Ralph Blizard (fiddle), Phil Jamison (guitar), Gordy Hinners (banjo), Andy Deaver (bass).
• Phil Jamison, Thomas Maupin, and friends flatfooting at the Clifftop festival in 2010
• Phil calling the Grapevine Twist square dance and a big set dance at the 2011 Dare to be Square in Brasstown, NC
• Historic recordings from Phil (view the entire collection referenced in his book here):
  • Mellie Dunham, "Chorus Jig" contra dance (1926)
  • Samantha Bumgarner, calling a Southern (big ring) square dance to "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss" (1924)
  • Ernest Legg calling "Chase the Rabbit" square dance with the Kessinger Brothers playing "Devil's Dream" (1928)
• “Zai Na Yaoyuan De Difang” (In That Faraway Place) – “March Celebration: Chinese-Appalachian Collaborations,” Jenny & the Hog Drovers and Manhu (recorded in Shanghai, China, 2017) Maddy Mullany & Clarke Williams (fiddles), Phil Jamison (banjo), Hayden Holbert (guitar), Landon George (bass), Jin Hongmei (vocal)
  • Watch a video of the group performing in China

Other Links

• Phil's website, where you can also order his book, Hoedowns, Reels, and Frolics: Roots and Branches of Southern Appalachian Dance
• Square 'em up! A Dare to be Square event is happening in Dumfries, Virginia, May 6 - 8, 2022!
• Crazy about squares? There is SO MUCH on the Square Dance History Project webpage.
• Phil was featured in a great episode of Radio Lab exploring the history of square dance called "Birdie in the Cage"
• You'll find some of Phil's writing on dance traditions here on his website

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click here to download it directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Dave in action:

• Visit these links to learn more about Dave’sbands: Big Bandemonium, The Latter Day Lizards, Les Z Boys, Childsplay, and Stomp Rocket.
• Check out this video of Big Bandemonium in action at the guiding star grange, filmed by Ray Sebold. There are a lot of recognizable faces in this video, including Ralph Sweet! And here’s another Big Bandemonium video at the Portland Raindance 2011.
• See Dave play with Latter Day Lizards at the 2020 Contra Carnivale.
• Here’s a video of Dave playing with Supertrad, the Sam Bartlett and Eric Schedler duo.
• Here is a video of Dave playing with Childsplay at The National Heritage Museum in Lexington, MA. (At 6:23 you can hear Dave (off camera) play 4 beats and lead off the tune "Ways of the World.")
• You can see Dave playing with Stomp Rocket at the Portland Intown Contra Dance in 2018 in this video.

Odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Several people Dave mentions have been on their own Contra Pulse episodes: Sam Bartlett, Kate Barnes, Becky Tracy, Larry Unger
• Ralph Sweet’s Powder Mill Barn.
• Augusta Heritage Center in Elkins, West Virginia.
• Dave mentioned some of his teachers, and inspirations including Pete Sutherland, Liz Carroll, Johnny Gimble, Bruce Molsky, and Lisa Ornstein.
• Here is an article about fiddlemaker Bob Childs, who made Dave's fiddle.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click here to download it directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Becky in action:

• To read more about Becky, check out the Black Isle Music website.
• Watch this video to see Becky and Keith play together.
• Read about Becky’s collaboration with Rachel Bell, Eloise & Co., on Rachel’s website.
• Here’s the band website for Wild Asparagus! 
• Here’s a video of Nightingale playing at the New England Youth Theater in Brattleboro, VT in 2010.
• Becky mentions a tune that Nightingale played once, but couldn’t quite remember the name in the moment. That tune is Return to Camden Town! You can watch a video of Nightingale performing it at the Fiddling Frog Dance Festival in 2011, during a dance called by Sue Rosen!
• Becky’s 2001 solo album Evergreen.

Odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Becky mentions a beautiful moment with the gospel singer Kathy Bullock. You can learn more about Kathy’s work on her website.
• Becky shares the nostalgia of her home dance hall, the Guiding Star Grange in Greenfield, Massachusetts.
• Learn more about the St. Croix dance weeks here!
• Becky and Julie mention George Marshall a few times throughout this conversation. Check out George’s episode on Contra Pulse here!
• Watch this video by Ray Sebold, where Becky plays fiddle with her Celtic music students at a benefit event for David Kaynor at the Guiding Star Grange.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click here to download directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

More about Dave Bartley:

Much to see on Dave’s own website, and you can also learn more about his many bands and musical projects on these sites:

• KGB - (Julie King, Claude Ginsburg, Dave Bartley)
• Contra Sutra - a contra dance band with Marni Rachmiel, Ryan McKasson or Brandon Vance, and a elite percussionist selected from a binder full of percussionists.
• Roguery - A versatile English (and contra) dance band with Anita Anderson, Shira Kammen, and Jim Oakden.
• Valse Café Orchestra - Viennese waltzes and other ballroom dance music from latin to swing.
• The Irish Experience, electric Celtic music
• Keltoi, traditional music of Scotland and Ireland
• Rouge, French cafe music featuring chanteuse extraordinaire Elle Rayor

See and hear Dave in action:

• Recently Dave, Anita Anderson, and Ryan McKasson played Paddy Fahy’s #1 & Big John McNeil at the Lake City dance October 21, 2021 (N.B. masks were required for dancers, optional for musicians while on stage)
• With KGB:
  • Banjo in a Bear Suit and Za in the Qi in the Glen Echo Bumper Car Pavilion
  • Zahtar at the Ann Arbor Dawn Dance weekend 2012
  • As MI-5, our ECD alter ego, playing Jack’s Maggot hambone in formal wear
• With Contra Sutra:
  • Growling Old Man and Woman & Dancing Bear from Butterfly Whirl 2018 from Dancing with the GODS 2020
  • Play with Alacrity & Loud Hall from Dancing with the GODS 2020
  • Vladi on the Trans-Siberian & The Dancers of Teeth from Dancing with the GODS 2020
• With Roguery:
  • Love and All That Hijaz (for the dance Love Always), Ann Arbor Dawn Dance weekend 2013:
  • A Flash of Vermilion (for the dance Ruby Crowned Kinglet), Hey Days 2018
• Other delightful bits:
  • Dave wrote this lovely tune called “Remembering David” for David Kaynor. He shared the sheet music with us, which you can see here
  • Dave plays classical guitar during the pandemic shutdown: Vals #3 in D major by Agustin Barrios Mangore
  • A mid-80s composition from Dave called City Rain
  • Rouge (also featuring Ruthie Dornfeld) from NW Folklife 2011, playing La Steppe by the Amestoy Trio
  • Pasatempo playing rebetika at a 2009 concert in Portland, OR.

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Sandy Silva’s incredible percussive dancing and her Migration Dance Film Project
• The epic Princeton area mega-dance band Rum & Onions playing at the NEFFA Festival
• Dave is a big fan of the epic English and European style folk band Blowzabella

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click here to download the transcript directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Ben Smith in action:

• Learn all about Ben’s amazing work as a digital-intermedia artist, composer, musician on his personal website
• Also check out his main musical projects
  • The Mean Lids
    • Here the trio plays a contra dance at Warren Wilson College in Asheville, NC with caller Hank Morris in 2014
    • And at Contrastock VI at Glen Echo in 2016
    • Check out this west coast scene at the Epicenter Dance Weekend in Mill Valley, CA in 2019
    • And here the Mean Lids play a beautiful set for their hometown radio station (104.5FM Live On The Scene with DJ BJ Clark) at the Rose Bowl Tavern in Urbana, Illinois in July, 2021
  • D. R. Shadow
    • D.R. Shadow performs at the Lake Eden-area Arts Festival (LEAF) in 2018
    • And here he is playing a Live Electro Contra at the Indianapolis Grove Haus with Nealium.

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Ben made his mother cry by playing this tune
• He mentions the Sugar Hill dance weekend in Bloomington, IN, as an important venue and event for the Mean Lids
• Ithaca Roots:
  • Ben’s early mentor, Marty Blodgett of Ithaca, NY is seen here playing jazz fiddle at The Commons Bookstore in Ithaca
  • Here’s a recording from the Ithaca based band Cletus and the Barn Burners, an early influence of Ben’s
• You can hear this radio interview and performance with Ben’s early duo, Prairie Chicken Asylum with Matt Turino before Miriam Larson joined them to form the Mean Lids

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or click to download the transcript directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Anita Anderson in action:

• Here are two clips from one of Anita’s most recent gigs, a masked/vaxxed, in-person Lake City Contra Dance in Seattle! She’s playing with Ryan McKasson and Dave Bartley.
  • Clip #1
  • Clip #2 - Band close-up!
• Here she is playing at Seattle’s first gender-free Rainbow Contra Dance with Susan Burke and Marni Rachmiel in 2011
• Anita frequently plays with Dave Bartley, Sande Gillette, and Betsy Cooper in the ECD band the “Tricky Brits” and the same group’s contra counterpart, “Bag o' Tricks.” Learn more about their recordings here.
• Anita is also an anchor in the west coast ECD scene; along with the Tricky Brits she also plays with the ECD group Roguery (Anita, Dave Bartley, Shira Kammen and Jim Oakden)
  • Here they are at the Seattle Ball in 2017
  • And again at Hey Days in 2018
  • Roguery has recorded six CDs, which accompany Brooke Friendly and Chris Sackett’s six published collections of Scottish and English Country Dances

Other recordings played in this episode

• Julie and Anita play excerpts from the following tracks in this episode:
• Father Charlie’s/Frankie’s Tune from the album Hand it Down by Bob McQuillen, Laurie Andres, Cathie Whitesides
• Soulmate from Rodney Miller’s Airplang

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or download the transcript directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Sue Songer in action:

• Playing piano with her longtime band Joyride (Sue Songer, Erik Weberg, George Penk, and Jeff Kerssen-Griepat) the Portland Roadhouse during the Cascade Promenade in March, 2018.
  • Another Joyride video with Sue playing fiddle during the Northwest Folklife Festival in 2017
  • Here is the Joyride website
• You can’t say Sue Songer without immediately thinking of The Portland Megaband.
  • Watch her conduct the band at a Portland dance in 2013, filmed by Doug Plummer
  • You don’t want to miss the epic pandemic era Megaband video that Sue helped organize in March, 2021 (Sue is of course in her signature tux ;)
• Sometimes she also helps organize and conduct other community bands!
  • The Pittsfield Open Band in Ann Arbor, MI in 2018
  • Here’s the South Coast Dance Orchestra (OR) in 2017, a project of the South Coast Folk Society
     

A Lifetime of Achievements! 

• In 2019 CDSS awarded Sue the Lifetime Contribution Award for her contributions to the world of contra dance music!
  • Doug Plummer captured some highlights from the celebratory gathering in Portland, OR on 3/30/19 during which Sue’s award was presented.
  • Rob Hoffman also created a longer video of the full ceremony, which you can view here.

Publications

• Along with her co-editor, Clyde Curley, Sue helped to compile the three volumes of The Portland Collection: Contra Dance Music in the Pacific Northwest. 
  • In the podcast you heard selections from some of the accompanying CDs.
• Sue’s most recent publication, David A. Kaynor: Living Music and Dance encompasses and celebrates the many contributions David has made to the world of contra dance. Order your copy here!
  • Here’s the screen shot showing Kaynor’s calligraphy mentioned in the interview

Special thanks to Max Newman unearthing his vintage recording of the Uncle Gizmo album.

Check out our upcoming live event! Mentors and Inspirations – a panel discussion with Becky Tracy, Pete Sutherland, Rodney Miller, and Kate Barnes. On Monday October 18th at 7:30 Eastern.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or download the transcript directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Amy Larkin in action:

• This is a video of her playing with Heyday (Amy on fiddle, Shirley White on fiddle, Jonathan Larkin on accordion, George White on guitar) at the Concord Scout House in 2012
• Here she is playing twin fiddles with Eric Boodman, backed up by her frequent collaborator, guitarist Benjamin Foss, at the Sandywoods Contra Dance
• But twin fiddles is nothing compared to this gig with Charlie Pilzer’s superband “Not Enough Fiddles,” seen here playing at NEFFA in 2015
• She also plays Cajun and zydeco music with her husband, Jonathan Larkin and their bandmate Aaron Mayo in the Allons-y Band

Some other people mentioned in this interview:

Did you know that some of the people Amy mentions in this interview have also appeared on Contra Pulse!

• As mentioned above, Amy was part of Charlie Pilzer’s conglomeration - “Not Enough Fiddles.” Julie interviewed Charlie in Episodes 2 and 3 of this podcast.
• Two of Amy’s band mates in Uncle Gizmo, Larry Unger and Sam Bartlett, have also been Contra Pulse guests.
• She also mentions one of her primary musical influences, Rodney Miller, who spoke with Julie in Episode 24 of this show.

Finally, as promised in the interview Amy shared her tune list with us! You can check it out here.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or download the transcript directly.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Sam Bartlett in action:

• Playing at the 2012 Dance Flurry with Notorious
• And with the Stringrays at Dance in the Desert, 2013
  • You can also check out the Stringrays’ website
• Here’s Sam playing banjo while Abby Ladin (his wife), tears up the floor with her old time flat footing (while singing, too! Woah!) at the Alabama Folk School in 2015
• Sam brings together community art and music making in a cranky show at Timber Ridge Camp in 2016
  • Check out lots more art by Sam here on his Tumblr
• Julie and Sam speak at length about the jaw harp, his first instrument. Hear Sam talk about the joys of jaw harp and play a tune at Contra Carnivale in 2009
• Can’t get enough Sam? Here’s another recent interview he did, which includes him playing a few tunes with his son Stefan!
• And of course check out all the goodies on his own personal website and YouTube channel!
• You definitely won’t want to miss the Stuntology playlist!

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Pete Sutherland not only called the first contra dance Sam ever attended, but he got out on the floor to lead him through the dance when he lost his way. Did you know Pete has been interviewed on this podcast in a double episode (ep 19 and ep 20)!
• Here’s a great video from back in the day when Sam and Abby and a bunch of musicians and dancers performed with the dance company called “Rhythm in Shoes”

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more. Or go straight to the transcript.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

Be sure to check out Larry’s many recordings here on his website!

See and hear Larry Unger in action:

Here’s some video from this interview of Larry demonstrating his guitar technique

Larry has played for countless dances! Here are a few videos:

• With Audrey Knuth and Emily Troll in Greenfield, MA
• With Notorious at Echo Summit Dance Camp in 2019 and at the Dance Flurry in 2012
• And here with fiddler Karina Wilson (who you heard in our previous Contra Pulse episode!) at a contra dance in Denver, CO

You can hear tunes written by Larry in so many places:

• Here he is playing with fiddler Audrey Knuth (with an impressive instrumental background!)
• Playing his waltz "Two Rivers" for dancers at Norse Hall, Portland Oregon, September, 2019
• By Rhiannon Giddens & Francesco Turrisi at Le Café de la Danse Paris
• And a pandemic era solo banjo tune

How many instruments does he even play!?

• Playing “Shenandoah” slide guitar style on a National
• A fretless gourd banjo at “FunFest” in Evart, MI
• And how about this jaw harp / hurdy-gurdy duo!
   

Many dances have been written to Larry’s tunes:

• Voici some dancers in France dancing to his tune “Ariel Julia,” and here are some Tango Fusion dancers dancing to the same tune at the First Night Show at the Saratoga Dance Museum on New Year's Eve 2008.
• Here some English country dancers enjoy Larry’s tune “Judy and Jim's Wedding” while dancing “Sunlight Through Draperies” by Tom Ruby

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Karina Wilson in action:

• Karina has been playing for contra and ECD since she was a teenager!
  • Here she is with Jeff Spero in Santa Barbara, CA
  • And with Larry Unger in Denver, CO and in Paris, France (joined by David Brown)!
  • Here she plays for an English Country Dance at May Madness in Prescott, AZ
     
• She is involved in countless other musical projects such including
  • Lone Piñon, a New Mexican string band, or “orquesta típica”
  • Broomdust Caravan playing “cosmic country and blues”
  • A new project, Karina Wilson and Big Heart Band - here’s their music video “Blood Moon”
  • Being in quarantine didn’t stop the music - hear her perform with her trio in the fall of 2020 (with musicians Mohit Dubey and Michael Chavez)
     
• As you heard in the interview Karina is passionate about understanding traditional music from within the geographic and cultural contexts in which it has developed. She shared some of the fruits of her explorations with us:
  • Hear the band Lone Piñon perform a polka by elder violinist Mariano Romero and Tomas Maes (mandolin) of Santa Fe.
    • Here’s an archival recording of Mariano Romera and his group Los Villeros Alegres that Karina shared
  • Fom the Michoacán region (a state in Mexico) she has been inspired the fiddler Juan Reynoso - here he plays a pasodoble at the 2000 Festival of American Fiddle Tunes
     
• One of Karina’s biggest influences was her father, longtime dancer, dance caller and folk community icon in the Santa Fe region. He passed in 2011 but his legacy remains strong in dance communities throughout the Southwest.
  • Hear Richard call at “Boo Camp,” a local halloween dance weekend outside of Santa FE in 2007. Here’s another (spooky!) video (if you look closely you might catch Karina in a fairly epic Halloween costume...
  • Here is a little documentary created about Richard right before he died
  • Erik Erhardt and Lauren Lamont of New Mexico wrote a book about Richard called “All Join Hands” with his dances, poems, stories, and stories about him and his community in it.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Jeff Spero in action:

• One of Jeff Spero’s main musical projects over the years has been The Syncopaths:
  • Hear them in concert at Echo Summit dance camp in 2017
  • And here they are rocking the dance hall at Balance the Bay in 2015
• Jeff also plays with the Rhythm Raptors
  • Here they play at Fiddling Frog in 2015
  • And at Labor Day Dance Away in 2017
• In 2013 videographer Doug Plummer captured this video of Jeff expounding on his “boom chuck” piano accompaniment style at BACDS AmWeek
• AND he writes dances! Check out some of Jeff’s contra choreography here on his website
  • Jeff has also co-written a book with James Hutson titled “(Southern) California Twirls: A Collection of Contradances and Three Community Histories.” 

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Jeff mentions pianist Kate Barnes as a major influence—Kate has been interviewed on this podcast!
• He also plays with another Contra Pulse favorite, Rodney Miller, interviewed in Episode 24 of this podcast.
• Another west coast band, Hillbillies from Mars, has had bearing on Jeff’s style

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Doug Protsik in action:

• Doug’s longest-running musical project is the folk band Old Grey Goose. He produced all three of their recordings, including the group’s first recording in 1978 for Folkways, “Old Time Country Dance Tunes and Songs from Maine”
• This video is from a contra dance at Maine’s “Common Ground Fair” in 2011 with Doug playing fiddle and calling.
• Hear Doug perform his original work during the New Rag Contest at the World Championship Old-Time Piano Playing Contest, held every Memorial Day Weekend in Oxford, MS.
• Doug shares a special “Rain song” created at Maine Fiddle Camp
• Check-out this article from the Bangor Daily News featuring Doug and other Mainers sharing how they adapted and helped keep traditional music and dance alive during the pandemic. 
• Doug LOVES a good Fox Trot! Here he leads a Fox Trot on saxophone at an evening dance at Maine Fiddle Camp. He also arranged a fox trot version of “A Sentimental Journey” for a virtual Camp recording during pandemic..

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Doug is the current director of Maine Fiddle Camp, a family traditional music camp in central Maine
• He speaks at length about legendary Maine caller Ted Sanella 

In the interview Doug cites numerous influences on his playing and musical style:

• Fiddle masters Otto Soper [little to no information exists online about Otto though he is cited as an influence by countless traditional musicians), Don Messer, and Mellie Dunham
• Dudley Laufman, a regular at Maine Fiddle Camp (Dudley is featured in the very first episode of this podcast!) 
• Franco American musicians Louis Beaudoin, the band La Bottine Souriante, and harmonica player Gabriel Labbé

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Sylvia Miskoe in action:

• In the interview Sylvia speaks about her longtime involvement with the Canterbury Country Dance Orchestra. Watch a short clip from the documentary "Welcome Here Again, A Recording Session with the Canterbury Country Dance Orchestra" and hear the story of when the Orchestra performed at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival.
• Sylvia has been recognized by the New Hampshire State Council on the Arts for her deep and long-lasting influence on New Hampshire’s traditional music and dance. In 2011 she was presented with the Governor's Arts Award for Folk Heritage.
• See her play at the Scottish Gala for the Strathspey & Reel Society of New Hampshire that same year!
• Here she plays for a Scottish country dance at Springstep in Medford, MA with longtime collaborator Vince O’Donnell

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Sylvia mentions Dudley Laufman, who was interviewed for the very first episode of Contra Pulse!
• She is one of the founders of the Strathspey & Reel Society of New Hampshire, a group devoted to learning about and playing Scottish music, open to all ages and abilities and was their music director for 7 years.
• Julie and Sylvia both teach accordion at Maine Fiddle Camp in the summers!

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Betsy Branch in action:

• Betsy plays with longtime collaborator David Kaynor live at Fiddletunes Festival in 2010 and again at the Folklife Festival in Seattle
• Here she joins Leela Grace and Lisa Ornstein at the Portland Oldtime Music Gathering in Portland, Oregon in 2013 
• Through the magic of the internet and video editing Betsy plays along with her younger self and some friends in this compilation video ofMoney Musk

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Learn more about Betsy’s book project with Kevin Burke here
• Betsy is a close collaborator and music editor for The Portland Collection
• She is also the Associate Music Director for Portland Revels
• Betsy mentions fiddler and musicologist Lisa Ornstein, who also resides in the Pacific Northwest
• Here’s a peek behind the scenes of the Tractor Tavern Square Dance, a significant venue in Betsy’s exploration of dance music.
• Finally, check out this mega-cool video of the Portland Megaband, recorded virtually and edited together during pandemic times. An impressive feat!

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Owen Morrison in action:

• Owen plays with Elixir at ContraShock in New York City, September, 2018
• Here are The Morrison Brothers tearing it up at ContraCopia dance weekend in Philadelphia, November, 2014
• Listen to The Figments in concert at Michigan Dance Heritage Fall Dance Weekend, September 2014
• And here’s an amazing father and son duo, Owen playing one of his own tunes with his dad, Jim Morrison at Berea’s Christmas Country Dance School, 2009

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Owen’s band mates Anna Patton and Nils Fredland from Elixir have each been interviewed on this podcast!
• The Morrison Brothers website
• Many of Owen’s early musical connections were made at Pinewoods Camp

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Jeremiah McLane in action:

• Find Jeremiah’s music on his own website. He has so many bands and musical collaborations! To name a few:
• Jeremiah and his wife, pianist Annemieke McLane, play as a duo
• Here’s his (Mc)trio Kalos with guitarist Eric McDonald and fiddler Ryan McKasson  playing a set of Celtic tunes.
• His band Triton (with Timothy Cummings and Alex Kehler) made a music video featuring the set of of bourées you heard in this episode
• Jeremiah is virtuosic with French accordion music - check out this video from Acadia Trad School in 2018 
• Doug Plummer made this beautiful video of Nightingale playing a contra dance in Tacoma, WA.
• Here are the Clayfoot Strutters tearing up the big hall at the Dance Flurry in 2014

Some other people and topics mentioned in this interview:

• Jeremiah cites huge influence from Dudley Laufman on his path to becoming a contra dance musician. Julie interviewed Dudley in the very first episode of this podcast!
• Jeremiah sat in with the band Fresh Fish and mentions caller and fiddler Kerry Elkin, who brought together Irish music and contra dance music in an important way
• Hear more about the Clayfoot Strutters’ appearance at Maine’s Downeast Country Dance Festival in Pete Sutherland’s words in Episode 20 of Contra Pulse

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

Check out the video clip from this interview where Rodney talks about his bowing technique.

See and hear Rodney Miller in action:

• So much good stuff to check out on Rodney’s own website including his new tunebook!!
• He’s also been recording tunes and releasing them on Bandcamp during the pandemic.
• The Stringrays are one of Rodney’s current and most active bands
• Here they are playing a contra dance at Glen Echo in 2015
• Here’s a nice clip of Airdance performing at Folkmadness dance camp in Socorro, NM in 2003
• You can buy Rodney’s classic albums such as Airdance, Airplang and New England Chestnuts, and MANY more in his online store.
• Julie interviews Airdance band member Mary Cay Brass in Episode 14 of this podcast
• Here’s Rodney fiddling for Tod Wittemore as he calls a singing (and yodeling!) square at the Ralph Page Dance Legacy Weekend in 2012

Some other topics mentioned in this interview:

• The Nelson Contra dance - here’s a nifty video about it
• Pinewoods Camp where so many dance and music connections are made
• Rodney mentions going on tour with musician Andy Davis who Julie interviewed in Episode 18 of this podcast

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Tony Parkes in action:

• Calling Lazy H, a square, at the Scout House in 1992
• Calling his favorite square (Do-si-do and Face the Sides) to his favorite tune (Ragtime Annie) in Brasstown, NC
• Tony sent two resources for us to include in these notes:
  • A partial list  of Yankee Ingenuity sit-in musicians
  • A list of tunes Tony describes as follows: “I just sent an eclectic list of tunes I recall from my early days playing and calling. Many of them go back to my summers at Farm & Wilderness; others date from my first couple of years playing in the NEFFA Festival Orchestra. (That reminds me of something I didn’t get around to mentioning in the interview: I called a dance at my first festival in 1969 because one of the programmed callers didn’t show up. The callers submitted their dance titles in advance; somewhere I have the program sheets from 1969. There would be a set of three squares, with different callers, danced with the same partner and set, followed by a contra.) Note that not all of these tunes are of the kind I talked about: easy to play on any melody instrument. That list will take a bit more work to compile.”

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• The Square Dance History Project has some footage of Ed Durlacher calling in Central Park in the 1940s. His albums are still available!
• Benjamin Foss, the advocate of old Maine tunes Tony mentioned, has an album of his favorite New England contra tunes
• Here’s the text of a square dance calling course syllabus from Ed Gilmore, one of Tony’s calling influences
• Learn more about Michael and Mary Ann Herman and their Folk Dance House
• There’s more to say about Ted Sannella than fits in these notes! The Square Dance History Project has many resources, including dances he has written and clips of him calling
• George Marshall mentions Jack Sloanaker at Farm and Wilderness in his conversation with Julie (episode 13 of this podcast). Pete Sutherland talks about his experiences at Farm and Wilderness in Episodes 19 and 20.

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Curious about contra dance chestnuts? David Smukler and David Millstone wrote a book about them! CDSS has made the companion video collection available online — check it out!
• Here’s a video of The Dead Sea Squirrels playing a contra dance in Glen Echo, MD in 2013

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Nils Fredland in action:

• Calling “The Auctioneer” singing square with Nor’easter at Ashokan Northern Week in 2014
• Crowd surfing at Contrastock 2011 at the Spanish Ballroom in Glen Echo, MD
• Here’s Nils calling for the DC Square Dance Collective, with the Horseflies playing
• Here’s a video that shows the huge number of dancers
• This video shows what Nils described about having no stage.
• Here’s Nils calling with DJ Improper at the Wednesday night Amherst, MA dance in 2012
• Elixir‘s website
• Nils and Elixir at ContraShock 2018
• Nils and Elixir at Glen Echo, MD in 2012
• Playing with Johnny Socko, the ska band
• Listen to Monkey Puzzle, Nils’s a capella group from Bloomington, on Spotify
• On the Beat with Ralph Sweetis available for purchase in the CDSS web store
• Here’s Ralph calling “The Auctioneer” with Elixir and other musicians playing at the book launch dance in 2010
• Nils is currently the Artistic Director for Revels North

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• DC’s 10-hour event called Contrastock is still happening during non-COVID times
• TheDC Square Dance Collective is alive and well during non-COVID times, too
• Spark in the Dark is a series of techno contra events that BIDA has hosted
• More techno contra videos:
• Buddy System at LEAF in 2015
• Buddy System at LEAF in 2016
• We’re still looking for a video of the PJ song and of a techno square. Let us know if you have these!

Some musical groups mentioned in this interview:

• Here’s a video of Mock Turtle Soup from 2011
• Here’s a video of Popcorn Behavior from 1996, around the time Nils first contra danced to them

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• As Nils mentioned, Ralph’s family’s barn, the Powder Mill Barn in Enfield, CT, is still around and available for a wide variety of events
• The Ralph Sweet’s All-Stars recording Nils mentioned is called Shindig in the Barn
• Here’s a video of Lisa Greenleaf calling the 16-person dance Nils mentioned—Rod’s Quad #2

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Mary Lea in action:

• Bare Necessities is Kate Barnes (Episode 9 interviewee), Earl Gaddis, Mary, and Jacqueline Schwab.
• Playing for a ball in Nashville in 2017
• Listen to their albums on bandcamp
• Childsplay
• A memorial page for Donna Grossman has some sound clips, photographs, and information on Ladies Chain, the 5-women band Mary started out with
• Yankee Ingenuity is Kate Barnes (Episode 9 interviewee), Cal Howard, Mary, and Jack O’Connor
• Their album, Heatin’ Up the Hall
• Playing for a square in 1992, with Tony Parkes calling
• A 2008 recording from the Monday night dance
• This page has info on all of Mary’s current bands, including:
• BLT playing for vintage dancing in 2017
• Crazy Quilt, whose other members Julie has also chatted with for this podcast (Anna Patton in Episode 5 and Peter Siegel in Episode 15)
• Dark Carnival plays the graveyard shift at the Brattleboro Dawn Dance in 2008
• Here’s a video of the moment Mary described playing Brasilerinho at the Ann Arbor Dawn Dance in 2015

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• Ruthie Dornfeld lives in Seattle now and has several musical projects. Here’s a video of her playing with Morten Alfred Høirup
• Arthur Davis also mentions playing with Laurie Indenbaumin Episode 6 of this podcast
• Julie chats with Audrey Knuth in Episode 16 of this podcast
• George Marshall knows Richard Powers and talks some about his experiences with vintage dance in Episode 13 of this podcast

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• The tune list Mary mentioned.
• Wikipedia has a pretty good article on choro/chorinho
• The Brattleboro Dawn Dance has a great history page

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Pete Sutherland in action:

• Pete’s Posse is Pete Sutherland, Oliver Scanlon, and Tristan Henderson
• Playing a contra dance at Falcon Ridge Folk Festival in 2016
• Playing the end of a concert set at a festival in 2017
• Check out their YouTube channel.
• The Arm and Hammer String Band performs The Shopping Song
• Metamora’s eponymous album is on YouTube; you can also buy their albums on Grey Larsen’s website
• The Clayfoot Strutters
• Buy their only album, “Going Elsewhere” and listen on YouTube while you’re waiting for it to come in the mail.
• At the Guiding Star Grange in Greenfield, MA in 2013
• Here’s a video clip of Pete playing Hull’s Victory at Ralph Page 2004
• And, of course, here he is playing Money Musk at the same weekend
• Can’t get enough? Here’s an interview with Pete from 1999; here’s another from 2002.

Some other topics mentioned in this interview:

• Check out Young Tradition Vermont— there’s a lot going on!
• Nightingale is Jeremiah McLane, Keith Murphy, and Becky Tracy. Here’s a video clip of them playing in 2008.
• The Horseflies getting their slow, deliberate groove on at the Dance Flurry in 2009.
• If you haven’t listened to Julie’s conversation with George Marshall, check out Episode 13 of this podcast.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Pete Sutherland in action:

• Pete’s Posse is Pete Sutherland, Oliver Scanlon, and Tristan Henderson
• Playing a contra dance at Falcon Ridge Folk Festival in 2016
• Playing the end of a concert set at a festival in 2017
• Check out their YouTube channel.
• The Arm and Hammer String Band performs The Shopping Song
• Metamora’s eponymous album is on YouTube; you can also buy their albums on Grey Larsen’s website
• The Clayfoot Strutters
• Buy their only album, “Going Elsewhere” and listen on YouTube while you’re waiting for it to come in the mail.
• At the Guiding Star Grange in Greenfield, MA in 2013
• Here’s a video clip of Pete playing Hull’s Victory at Ralph Page 2004
• And, of course, here he is playing Money Musk at the same weekend
• Can’t get enough? Here’s an interview with Pete from 1999; here’s another from 2002.

Some other topics mentioned in this interview:

• Check out Young Tradition Vermont— there’s a lot going on!
• Nightingale is Jeremiah McLane, Keith Murphy, and Becky Tracy. Here’s a video clip of them playing in 2008.
• The Horseflies getting their slow, deliberate groove on at the Dance Flurry in 2009.
• If you haven’t listened to Julie’s conversation with George Marshall, check out Episode 13 of this podcast.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Andy Davis in action:

• Check out New England Dancing Masters!
• Andy’s YouTube Channel has some tunes for you to learn.
• The Square Dance History Project has an hour of footage from a New Year’s Eve dance from 1981, with music from Andy and a few other musicians Julie has spoken with, including Kate Barnes (Episode 9). There’s some footage of the musicians starting around 7:50.
• It’s not a contra dance, but here’s Andy singing and playing accordion with Nowell Sing We Clear in 1990.

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• Along with Peter and Mary Alice Amidon and Mary Cay Brass, Andy is a part of New England Dancing Masters. Mary Cay talks with Julie about some of her experiences with this in Episode 14 of this podcast.
• Here are some videos of square dances at Ralph Sweet’s Powder Mill Barn in Enfield, CT. More information about the barn.
• East Hill Farm still hosts many square dance events
• Pete Sutherland and Mark Sustic’s Young Tradition Vermont.
• Andy mentions Pinewoods Camp in Plymouth, MA as an important part of his contra experiences.

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• Laurie Andres doesn’t have a website, but here’s a video of him playing for a contra dance in 2011.
• The Square Dance History Project has a recording of Basil “Smitty” Smith calling the singing square “MacNamara’s Band” at a barn dance in West Wardsboro, VT.
• Julie interviewed Andy’s son Arthur Davis in Episode 6 of this podcast.
• Here’s a recording of Randy Miller’s piano playing — these are two Irish tunes and not necessarily for a contra, but this will give you an idea of what Andy admires about his playing.

Some musical groups mentioned in this interview:

• David Millstone has a good write-up of Northern Spy’s history on his website, including some photos
• Firecloud is Julie Vallimont, Andy Reiner, and Andrew Hlynsky. Here’s a brief clip of them playing the Amherst, MA dance in 2013.

Some odds and ends  mentioned in this interview:

• Here’s a flyer from an East Alstead, NH contra dance that Andy played with Chris Madigan, Lark Madigan, and some Littles.
• Jack Perron and Randy Miller play an Irish reel.
• Like Andy, George Marshall also worked at Farm and Wilderness summer camps in Plymouth, VT. He and Julie talk about some of his experiences there, including the F and W String Band, in Episode 13 of this podcast.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

-----------------------------------------

See and hear Gordon Peery in action:

• Trip to Nelson was Gordon, Richard Backes, Lizza Backes, Matt Garland, and Perin Ellsworth-Heller
• You can listen to the Fresh Fish album, Turning of the Tide on Gordon’s website
• Gordon’s work with Paul Klemperer

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• The Nelson, NH contra dance happens in the Nelson Town Hall during non-COVID times. Here’s a great local write-up from 1990.
• Here’s an article from 1983 that mentions Harvey Tolman
• Monadnock Folklore Society

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• George Marshall talks about some of his experiences with Ralph Page in Episode 13 of this podcast
• Julie interviewed Dudley Laufman in Episode 1 of this podcast
• Rodney Miller and Randy Miller’s websites
• Learn more about Harvey Tolman from this brief bio and from Gordon’s website

Some musical groups mentioned in this interview:

• You can find the New England Tradition and Old New England albums — Bob McQuillen’s bands — on Great Meadow Music’s website

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Check out this great interview from New Hampshire Public Radio with Gordon Peery and Skip Gorman  about the origin of contra dance.
• Gordon has a write-up of his experiences with The Chieftans and the Nelson Country Dancers on his website.
• The Folkway in Peterborough closed in 1996, but you can read a remembrance here. The Peterborough Folk Music grew out of it and still hosts concerts, including some livestream concerts during COVID times.
• Here’s Randy Miller’s write-up about John Taggart from liner notes of The Music of John Taggart, the out-of-print recording by the New Hampshire Fiddlers Union. Gordon does have one track from this recording available on his website.
• The Green Mountain Volunteers’s website

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Audrey Knuth in action:

• The Free Raisins
• Wake Up Robin
• The Gaslight Tinkers — Peter Siegel talks with Julie about this band in Episode 15 of this podcast. Here she is with them in 2015
• Sign up for her Monday night Tunes and Stuff class
• Audrey, Julie, and Rachel Bell playing in Denver in 2017
• Larry Unger and Audrey playing tunes together
• Audrey and Erik Hoffman playing the Santa Barbara, CA contra dance in 2018
• Audrey, Chris Knepper, Del Eckels, and Christopher Jacoby playing the 2018 New Year’s Eve dance in Sacramento, CA

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• The Honolulu contra dance is no longer at the Atherton, but it still happens during non-COVID times
• The Scout House in Concord, MA hosts a few dances Audrey and Julie talked about:
• Concord, NH area contra dance
• Learn more about the Syracuse [NY] Country Dancers
• Debby Knight runs Roaring Jelly;check out the Roaring Jelly website
• Here’s a 2011 video of a Davis Square pop-up contra
• Learn more about Camp Sturtevant on their website. Don’t worry — there are definitely photos of the donkeys!
• Learn more about Contradancers Delight Holiday (CDH) here
• Learn more about Raindance in Portland, OR
• Fiddling Frog takes place in Pasadena, CA when there’s no pandemic
• Satisfy your curiosity and read about the Hobart, Tasmania contra dance

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• Jeff Kaufman, Audrey’s bandmate in the Free Raisins, has written extensively on his experiences with the band, including a post about the process Audrey described of listening to recordings of the dance they had just played
• Sarah VanNorstrand
• Garrett Sawyer and his studio, Northfire, came up in Julie’s chat with Peter Siegel (Episode 15)
• Luke Donforth is a Vermont-based contra dance caller
• Dana Parkinson is a Florida-based contra dance caller

Some places mentioned in this interview:

• The Hale Koa Hotel in Honolulu
• The Guiding Star Grange #1 in Greenfield, MA has featured in many of Julie’s interviews. It’s a mainstay of the Western Massachusetts contra dance scene.

Some musical groups mentioned in this interview:

• Yankee Ingenuity was Kate Barnes, Cal Howard, Mary Lea, Jack O’Connor, and Tony Parkes. Kate has a little blurb about them on this archived page of her website.
• Crowfoot was Adam Broome, Nicholas Williams, and Jaige Trudel.
• Nor’easter was Max Newman, Cedar Stanistreet, and Julie Vallimont.
• Buddy System is Noah VanNorstrand and Julie Vallimont. Julie and Noah talk about some of their experiences playing together in Episodes 11 and 12 of this podcast.
• La Banane Enchantée was Peter Buchak, Julie Vallimont, and Edward Wallace. Here they are playing in Atlanta in 2012.
• Lissa Schneckenburger talks about her experiences playing with Bruce Rosen as Phantom Power in Episode 10 of this podcast.
• Here’s a video of Notorious playing Red Prairie Dawn for a contra dance in 2012
• Audrey mentioned subbing in on fiddle for Elixir

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• Check out Emily Rush’s contra dance workouts!
• Reign of Love, by Keith Murphy, is the first tune in this set played in a group led by Becky Tracy
• Turtle in the Grass, by Ari Friedman, is the first tune in this video
• Wing Commander Donald Mackenzie, by Phil Cunningham, is the third tune in this Airdance set, starting at 3:09
• Here’s a group of people dancing La Bastringue
• Here’s a recording of The Road to Malvern, the tune Audrey and Julie agree is too crooked to play for a contra dance — they prefer Red Prairie Dawn (see the Notorious video)
• Here’s the Free Raisins’s (non-crooked) recording of Fleur de Mandragore
• L'ange aux patins, the waltz Julie and Audrey mentioned,is the first tune in this set

• His website
• His show Live from Brattleboro is every Sunday evening at 6 p.m. Eastern. is available for watching on Facebook and YouTube. (Older episodes on YouTube are here)
• The Gaslight Tinkers live at the Iron Horse in 2013
• Playing and singing with Pete Seeger in 2012
• With Susan Conger, Susie Secco, and David Kaynor playing at the John C. Campbell Folk School Dance Musicians’ Week in 2009
• The Beverwyck String Band’s album is elusive right now — if you know of a way to purchase or listen to it, please let us know!

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• Julie and Mary Cay Brass discuss other aspects of the Greenfield Dance Band in their conversation in Episode 14
• Jay Ungar and Molly Mason make the magic happen at Ashokan
• Lyn Hardyis still performing and is also a luthier
• Susan Conger
• Here’s an interview with Guy Bouchard. Thirty Below no longer exists, unfortunately…
• Sue Songer was awarded CDSS’s Lifetime Contribution Award in 2019
• Garrett Sawyer runs Northfire Studio in Amherst, MA.

Some musical groups mentioned in this interview:

• Jim Kimball is still running the Geneseo String Band at SUNY Geneseo
• You can learn more about Wild Asparagus from Julie’s conversations with David Cantieni (Episodes 7 and 8) and George Marshall (Episode 13)
• Here’s a video from Ashokan with members of Nightingale and Wild Asparagus jamming together
• The Mammals
• Peter mentioned Garrett’s band The Alchemystics; here’s what they sound like
• Here’s Ann Percival’s swing band, The O-Tones, performing “Let’s Get Away from it All”

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• Learn more about the Clearwater Festival on their website
• The Old Fiddler’s Convention in Galax, VA
• Ashokan Northern Week happened virtually this summer
• You can read more about the environmental education programming at Ashokan here
• Julie mentioned drawing on David Kaynor’s ideas when starting the BIDA dancein Cambridge, MA
• Dance Musicians’ Week at the John C. Campbell Folk School also happened virtually this summer

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• At the beginning of the interview, Peter was riffing on “John Henry.” Here’s a recording of Pete Seeger singing it.
• Listen to Woodie Guthrie singing and playing “This Land Is Your Land”
• Here’s La Bottine Souriante playing both "Hommage à Edmond Parizeau" and "Dédicado à Jos"
• Here’s a YouTube video to give you an idea of what Soca Calypso sounds like
• PVPA is the Pioneer Valley Performing Arts charter school in South Hadley, MA
• Peter mentioned using the New England Dancing Masters material in his teaching. Mary Cay Brass talks about this in Episode 14

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more.

And the Country Dance and Song Society for information about Contra and English country dance across the continent.

See and hear Mary Cay Brass in action:

• The 2011 Village Harmony Teen Residential Ensemble performing Macedonian songs and dances, with Mary Cay Brass on piano accordion
• A 1996 recording by Ray Sebold of the Greenfield Dance Band (David Kaynor, Mary Cay Brass, Roger Kahle, Michael Kerry, and Susan Waters).
• A clip from a 2003 Airdance concert set
• Her recordings and books are available on:
• Her website
• Great Meadow Music
• The CDSS store
• Bandcamp (a Village Harmony recording of songs she collected in the Balkans)

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• The Brattleboro Dawn Dancesare still happening twice a year in non-COVID times.
• The DownEast Country Dance Festival
• The Fiddle Tunes Workshop
• Festival Mémoire et Racines
• The Sage Gateshead still runs Folkworks summer schools in Durham, UK
• The Old Songs Festival in Altamont, NY
• The Sidmouth International Festival that Mary Cay mentions no longer exists in the same form, but the Sidmouth Folk Festival still happens in Sidmouth, Devon, UK in non-COVID times.
• Alasdair Fraser’s Valley of the Moon Scottish Fiddle Campis at Camp Campbell in Boulder Creek, CA
• Village Harmony

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• The singer from Québec City Mary Cay blanked on the name of is Gabrielle Bouthillier. Here’s a video of her singing.
• Check out this recording of Bo Bradham playing “Wild Hog in the Woods” and “Pike’s Peak,” found on an archived copy of hiswebsite
• Mary Cay’s new accordion teacher, Sunniva Brynnel
• Andy Davis and Peter and Mary Alice Amidon, along with Mary Cay, make up New England Dancing Masters. They create instructional material grounded in traditional music and dance, like the album Mary Cay mentioned, Chimes of Dunkirk.
• Stéphane Delicq passed away in 2010, but here’s a video of him tearing it up on the diatonic button accordion in 1993
• Pascal Gemme is a Québécois fiddler best known for his playing in Genticorum
• Susan Kevraisthe caller on Full Swing, the album with dance-length tracks mentioned in this interview
• Mary Lea
• Here’s an interview with Mario Loiselle, the inspirational Québécois piano player Mary Cay mentioned.
• Here’s a video of Bob McQuillen playing in his boom-chuck style
• Marie-Soleil Pilette stepdances with Genticorum starting at 3:31 at Ashokan Northern Week, 2018
• Peter Siegel
• Lissa Schneckenburger spoke with Julie about her experiences playing with the Greenfield Dance Band in Episode 10 of this podcast.

Some places mentioned in this interview:

• Here’s a photo of the Belle of Brattleborofrom an old postcard
• Orchard Hill Breadworks in East Alstead, NH, is a fabulous bakery
• The church in Westminster West, VT

Some musical groups mentioned in this interview:

• Airdance recordings are available from Great Meadow Music
• La Bottine Souriante
• The Canterbury Country Dance Orchestraalso comes up in Julie’s interview with Charlie Pilzer, which is Episodes 2 and 3 of this podcast (part 1) (part 2). You can also check out Julie’s interview with Dudley Laufman.
• Héritage — we’re still looking for information about this group! Stay tuned, and let us know if you have any.
• Tidal Wave/Raz de Marée
• Le Vent du Nord

Some odds and ends mentioned in this interview:

• The Ethnic Folks Arts Center in New York City that Mary Cay mentioned is now called the Center for Traditional Music and Dance
• Green Mountain is available on YouTube
• If you want to hear more Québécois piano this week, check out Pascal Gemme and Marie-Soleil Pilette’s Fiddle Hell Online Jam from June
• Great Meadow Musichas many fabulous contra dance CDs available, thanks to the efforts Mary Cay mentioned in her interview

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more contrapulse.cdss.org

And the Country Dance and Song Society for more information about Contra and English country dance across the continent www.cdss.org

See and hear George in action:

• YouTube video of Buddy System and George at Falcon Ridge Folk Festival (Hillsdale, NY) in 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mCc55ocWec
• YouTube video of George Marshall with Wild Asparagus at the Guiding Star Grange (Greenfield, MA) in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-RzSdjufnA
• Wild Asparagus CDs are available here: http://band.wildasparagus.com/music/purchase-music/
• Swallowtail CDs and cassettes are available here: http://www.swallowtail.com/album_order.html

Some dances and events mentioned in this interview:

• The Tamworth, NH contra dance is still happening in non-COVID times: http://tamworthoutingclub.org/dances.html
• Some history: http://tamworthoutingclub.org/a-closer-look-at-outing-club-dances.html
• The contra dance in St. Croix George talked about has evolved into two dance weeks:
• Tropical Dance Vacation: http://www.tropicaldancevacation.com/
• The Rose City Dance-A-Rama: https://www.dancearama.org/
• Cincinnati’s vintage dance academy: http://vintagedance.net/

Some people mentioned in this interview:

• David Cantieni also tells the story of Wild Asparagus’s first tour in his conversation with Julie; check it out here: https://www.cdss.org/contrapulse/podcast/episode-7-david-cantieni-part-1/
• Marianne Taylor’s husband was Conny Taylor; you can read the Folk Arts Center of New England bios of both of them here: http://www.facone.org/about-our-founders.html
• The Square Dance History Project has a series of interviews with Larry Edelman on their website: https://squaredancehistory.org/exhibits/show/brasstown-interviews/larry-edelman---biography
• Richard Powers, the Cincinnati vintage dance teacher, includes some of his thoughts on social dance on his website: http://richardpowers.com/

Some places mentioned in this interview:

• Pinkham Notch, in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, where George did trail work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkham_Notch
• The barn in Tamworth, NH where George first encountered contra dancing burned down in 2017. The current owners of the property have rebuilt a barn in its footprint: https://www.reservethepreserve.com/the-barn
• A photo from 2017, before the barn burned: https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/conwaydailysun.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/b9/fb97dabc-c8c8-11e7-8377-9348a54bdbf2/5a0a28939f9bb.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C900

The interstitial music from today's episode is  Mia's Room from Buddy System's album Ride the Wheel. And The Amazing Flying Sebastian from Great Bear's Album Magic Fantasy Dream Dance.

Check out his book of tunes Long Flight Home - Original Tunes by Andrew and Noah VanNorstrand.

And don't forget Cool Hip Dancer!

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more contrapulse.cdss.org

And the Country Dance and Song Society for more information about Contra and English country dance across the continent www.cdss.org

The interstitial music from today's episode is  Acorn Stomp – Black Jack Grove from Buddy System's album Ride the Wheel. And The Amazing Flying Sebastian from Great Bear's Album Magic Fantasy Dream Dance.

Check out his book of tunes Long Flight Home - Original Tunes by Andrew and Noah VanNorstrand.

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more contrapulse.cdss.org

And the Country Dance and Song Society for more information about Contra and English country dance across the continent www.cdss.org

The interstitial music from today's episode is  Rory O'More from her album Dance. Which can also be found at the CDSS Store

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more contrapulse.cdss.org

And the Country Dance and Song Society for more information about Contra and English country dance across the continent www.cdss.org

Learn more about Kate Barnes at CDSS: www.cdss.org/44-community/lifetime-contribution-awards

The interstitial music for this week is Hell Broke Loose in Georgia from the Latter Day Lizards' album Sleeping on a Rock:  www.latterdaylizards.com

You can find Kate's recordings and publications at the CDSS store and here: www.canispublishing.com

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more: contrapulse.cdss.org

And the Country Dance and Song Society for more information about Contra and English country dance across the continent: www.cdss.org

And his band Wild Asparagus: http://www.wildasparagus.com/about.html

The interstitial music for this week's episode is The Baker / After the Bomb / Big Red off David's Album  Red Rock

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more: https://contrapulse.cdss.org/

And the Country Dance and Song Society for more information about Contra and English country dance across the continent: https://www.cdss.org/

And his band Wild Asparagus: http://www.wildasparagus.com/about.html

The interstitial music for this week's episode is The Baker / After the Bomb / Big Red off David's Album  Red Rock

See the Contra Pulse website for transcripts and more: https://contrapulse.cdss.org/

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More info on Anna's band Elixir can be found here: https://www.elixirmusic.com/

The interstitial music from this week's episode is Reel du Love Shack from Anna's Album Isadore's Breakfast

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Check out more about Charlie on his website: http://www.charliepilzer.com/about.html

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Transcript coming soon!

Check out a video excerpt of the interview below! Full audio above.

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[Intro music]

Julie Vallimont: Hello and welcome to Contra Pulse, I’m Julie Vallimont. In this podcast series we’ll be conducting interviews with contra musicians and talking to them about their craft. What kind of music do you play for contra dancing? Why do you choose the tunes that you do? How did you learn to play? What, in your mind, makes the dancers move? How do you think contra dance is changing? What’s your idea of perfect contra dance music? We’ll be exploring all those things, hearing stories from their experiences, stories on the dance floor. And we’ll begin to get a sense of what’s happening and how the contra scene is changing. Thanks for joining us.

Today we’re hearing from Dudley Laufman. I was very happy to be able to find some time to sit down with Dudley in the woods at Maine Fiddle Camp last summer along with his daughter, Linsday Holden. Dudley is often at Maine Fiddle Camp in the summertime. He comes to teach accordion and share stories and he also leads the evening dance. The barn dance is a big hit, there’s always lots of people who come and the stage is full of musicians who sit in with him, as is tradition – so many folks that they often don’t all fit on the stage. Dudley has been playing and calling dances for over 50 years. He’s been the leader of the Canterbury Dance Orchestra which has several recordings. Dudley helped keep contra dancing going, and Dudley Dancers, as they are called, went to his dances in the 60s and since then have spread them throughout the country. Many of our contra dances today around the country day can be traced back to Dudley Dances.

He is the recipient of a 2009 National Heritage Fellowship awarded by the NEA which is the United States’ highest honor in the folk and traditional arts. We’re very happy to talk with him today and hear some of his stories and experiences over the years. Thank you so much, Dudley, for joining us.

Dudley Laufman: Okay, fire away!

Julie: Fire away! Okay, thank you so much. So I’m curious to get a sense of how contra music has changed over the years, and the tunes that you’re playing then. I know you’re still calling now. So where do you want to start? Do you want to talk about the kind of dances that you call now versus then, and the tunes that go with them, or how do you pick tunes–?

Dudley: Oh, all right. I’ll answer that. For a whole evening, I like to make a more or less even arrangement between jigs and reels.

Dudley: So one dance will be for a jig, the next one will be for a reel or a hornpipe, and I try to vary that.  And then when I’m working with people who don’t dance very much, I very seldom do squares.

Dudley: Takes too long to get ‘em in the squares, particularly at a wedding. You get them all in there and then somebody says, “Oh, I gotta say goodbye to the bride,” and they’ll leave.

Julie: [laughs] And then the square can’t–

Dudley: Yeah. So I don’t usually do the square dances. But when I choose a tune, like I said, either like a jig or a reel–but I also like to arrange the keys, although I’m not too fussy about that. But if that’s something–if I’ve got a whole bunch of tunes in the key of G, I’ll try to find something that’ll go into D,  just to give it a little variation on it. But in the regular–no, not regular, but the contra dance, from what I see of it, they use three tunes per dance–

Dudley: –called “medleys”?

Dudley: I never do that.

Julie: Hm.

Dudley: I never have. The only time that I did medleys was the original Sir Roger de Coverley Virginia Reel. It was done to–the first part where the corners come, that was done to a jig, and then the reel, the Strip the Willow was done to a reel, and then the processional, the marching around was done to a march. And at the dance that I used to go to at Mistwold Farm, he played Larry O’Gaff for the jig–

Dudley: Macloud’s Reel for the reel–and John Brown’s Body for the march. And they never changed. That was right out of the Henry Ford book. And so that was–you could call that a medley.

Dudley: And, as a dancer, you had to pay attention to, ‘cause you couldn’t go marching around while they were still playing the reel, and if we did, Betty Quimby would let us know–in no uncertain terms. But otherwise, I rarely will do a medley.

Dudley: First of all, I got enough to do: play the accordion, call the dance, manage the floor. If Sylvia is playing for me, and insisted on doing a medley, I say, “You pick it and tell me when you’re gonna change,” and that sort of thing. Otherwise, I don’t. But that seems to be a big thing with the modern contra dance bands. Medleys for three tunes per dance, mostly. And then the kinds of tunes, I think a lot of them are traditional tunes, but it’s the way they’re played. They’re played faster, and sometimes there’s some blues riffs in it, or jazz–

Dudley: –but mostly it’s the speed, and there’s the difference between when I was a kid. When I was a kid growing up, the first dances I went to were at Mistwold’s Farm, and when he’d play for the Virginia Reel–well, I just told you what he’d play for that, but they would do a square dance to Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous, and they would do another one to–there was another tune they used to–oh yeah, Captain

Jinks. And until I went off to agricultural school, I thought that’s all it was. I went to the aggie down Walpole, Mass My pomology instructor–that’s the trees, apple trees–

Julie: Yeah!

Dudley: He and his wife ran square dances. We had square dancing every Monday night–at the gym, and then they were—that was where I learned about dancing, more to it, and one of the fellows told me, he said, “You know, if you’re gonna continue doing this, you gotta stop skipping,” and I said, “Well, that’s the way I did it.” “Doesn’t matter,” he said. “You gotta stop skipping. Keep your feet close to the floor.”

Dudley: So I learned a little bit more about the proper way of doing it. And when you went off to Square Dance Sundays, you’re going to dance to Ralph Page, and he had a dance every Tuesday night at the Boston YWCA, and he had a band, it was his Boston Orchestra. They did not do medleys.

Dudley: And they were a lot–all–two of the musicians played with the Boston Symphony. I mean, they were very–

Julie: –skilled musicians.

Dudley: Yeah. And they were good, too. And they could play–Walter Lob could play The Devil’s Dream like you never heard it, it was really something, you know. He just died recently. And–so that hall, the YWCA, it was all white with the chandeliers and it had a very polished feeling to it, and the dancers were very smooth. Most of them from MIT, you know. They just sort of glided across the floor. And occasionally Ralph Page would do the Money Musk, and everybody groaned, including me, ‘cause it wasn’t much fun.

Julie: Ha!

Dudley: But I went up to a dance in Peterborough one time, and Ralph had his New Hampshire Orchestra there, which consisted of Dick Richardson and Russ Allen on fiddles, and Johnny Trombly on the piano–he’s the one that taught Bob McQuillen about courting—and Junior Richardson on the stand-up bass, and then Bob McQuillen on the accordion. And that music was the best I’ve ever heard.

Dudley: And Ralph did more squares than contras in those days. He was a singing caller–

Dudley: He was one of the boys, he was in the union. He advocated the use of ski boots, and he changed somewhere in there. He was–he really liked the square dances, and he would play in town halls, and had a pretty rough crowd come, and he did that for a long time. But the band–the New Hampshire Orchestra–

Julie: Yeah, let’s talk more about the band.

Dudley: Okay, they were something.

Julie: Yeah! What about it? You say it was like the best music you ever heard. What–

Dudley: It’s the sound.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: It’s the sound. They played–when I heard them first was at the Bell Studio, which is a place called Folkways in Peterborough, and it was a old barn, and it had a sprung floor.

Dudley: And the people who came were local farmers and woodchoppers and factory workers and summer folks. It was quite a mixture. There was no computer programmers then. And it was a great mixture for the dance. And Ralph Page did squares like Red River Valley, and Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous and Golden Slippers, sang all the calls. And then when he did contras, why, it was—Money Musk, Chorus jig, Lady Walpole’s, Rio Morning Star –and that was another thing, there was another caller there, Gene Gowing, and he would do Durang’s Hornpipe, things like that. But the music itself was very rich–

Dudley: –and–

Julie: Instrumentation-wise?

Dudley: Yeah, there was the accordion–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and two fiddles–

Dudley: –and they were playing mostly in unison. Russ would go into harmony once in a while.

Dudley: He was trained, you know. Dick was not trained. But I one time had Dick’s fiddle. His daughter gave me the fiddle and I had it for a while. Because I wasn’t using it, I gave it back, but it was one of his fiddles.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: One time, we were asked to do a dance in Marlborough,  where Dick came from, and Marlborough Historical Society wanted me to–I wrote a book about Dick–and they wanted me to do a culminating

event where we had a talk about the book and we would have some dance. And so, Walt was there, playing one of these big old accordions–

Julie: Mm-hm. And Johnny on piano?

Dudley: No, he was gone by that time.

Julie: Okay. So you’re talking about a different time.

Dudley: Yeah. Carl Jacobs played the bass, but he had heard Junior so he knew what to do.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: I was playing Dick Richardson–and Jacqueline was playing Russ Allen

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and, yeah, that was the crowd.

Julie: Who would have been on piano?

Dudley: Ah, Larry Siegal. He’s the one who wrote a play about me, Dancing master of Canterbury

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: And so I told–I played them recordings of the band and…we just could not get that sound.

Julie: Hm

Dudley: Close! We came very close.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: But it didn’t have that magic.

Julie: Yeah!

Dudley: One of the things about the magic of that was that when you get the whole band playing, it was great, but during the Korean War, McQuillen went off, went to a dance in Hancock where it was Junior and Russ and Johnny and Dick…and it had that sound. No accordion, but it still had that sound. And then I went to another dance one time, and Russ wasn’t there, so it was Junior, Dick, and Johnny. And then one time I had a dance at my house, and Junior and Dick came down and played for it, didn’t even have Johnny And then another dance, we just had Junior sick or drunk or something–

Dudley: –and we just had Dick…and that was it! Dick was the key.

Julie: He was the magic!

Dudley: He was the one that made that magic, yeah.

Julie: What was his fiddle style from? Do you know?

Dudley: He was untrained. It was all in his wrist.

Dudley: His right wrist was bigger than his left wrist–

Julie: Huh! Wow.

Dudley: –and it was just the way he played. And it just had a–and I’ve tried to duplicate it, I can’t do it, and I wasn’t able to do it even with instrumentation. Was not able to. Came close, but not the same.

Julie: Yeah. Are there recordings of him?

Dudley: Well, you know, they made some recordings. I think it was late ‘38, or in the ‘40s,

a new disc label, the 78s–78 RPMs.

Julie: Yep.

Dudley: And he–Ralph–did an album of New England singing calls, and so there’s Jingle Bells

and Girl Left Behind Me, and Red River Valley, Soldier Joy was on there too, but he sang, he sang.

Julie: Oh!

Dudley: He sang the notes to that. And the combination, it was Dick Richardson, there was a banjo player, Junior on the bass, Johnny Trombly on the piano, someone else. It was close, pretty close, and then—but anyway, later on, Michael Herman, down in New York City, ran a folk dance house, folk dancer, and he got Ralph to come down there and put on some dances, and then finally decided to make some recordings. So he got–there were two sets. Ralph had a band in Boston, and that was good.

Dudley: And he also brought his–Phil Jamoulis, and they had a very Boston sound, very smooth, a little fast. So I did a bunch of recordings with them. We recorded Petronella and Opera Reel and Turkey in the Straw and Canadian Breakdown, a couple of others. And–oh, no, the ones that he did with just the Boston Boys were Crooked Stovepipe, Chinese Breakdown, and Silver and Gold Two Step, and a couple

of others, just the three. So they recorded those, and then Ralph would put them on and call to them, so they had both with and without calls. And it was pretty smooth music, you know. And then, then they were joined by Walter Erickson, and he was an accordionist, a studio accordion player from New York.

Julie: Mm-hmT

Dudley: So he changed the sound. He was very loud. And then, they did Opera Reel, Petronella, and the Canadian Breakdown, and that was, again, with and without the calls. And then he did a batch with Dick and Junior and Johnny.

Dudley: Just those three. And they recorded Chorus Jig, Money Musk, Climbing the Golden Stairs, Stumpy Reel, and a couple of others, and did those without the calls, and then did the same thing with the calls.

Julie: Do you know where those recordings are now?

Dudley: Yeah, the Ralph Page Memorial Collection in Durham, and I’ve got some at home.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: And then they were joined by Walter Ericson, and they did Glise de Sherbrooke.

Julie: Mmm!

Dudley: And then Glise de Sherbrooke sold over a million copies.

Julie: Wow!

Dudley: In those days, that was something.

Julie: Yeah! That’s a lot of copies.

Dudley: Ten-inch, and then a twelve-inch 78. But Dick didn’t like Walter. Because when Walter plays, it’s very emphatic. He would inch closer to the microphone and he would drown Dick out, and Dick didn’t like that too much.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And they recorded a little bit too fast. It was evident Ralph had to squeeze a certain amount of the dance into the amount of time–

Julie: Oh, I see

Dudley: So it was played a little fast, but–

Julie: A little fast for dancing– [crosstalk]

Dudley: –not bad, but–

Julie: –which is good to know, because listening

to those recordings now–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –they had to know that’s not the tempo they would’ve danced to.

Dudley: Yeah. And it was also, for a while there, until they did something that you couldn’t–they’d play a harmonica along with the record, make the same pitch. But that got changed, because when I was learning to play harmonica, I was able to use the record.

Dudley: But I thought I’d died and gone to heaven when those records came out, and I just played

‘em over and over again.

Julie: How old were you then?

Dudley: Uh, sixteen, seventeen?

Julie: Yeah? So you’re kinda growing up playing those–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Like, when I wanted to learn to play contra music, I listened to the New England Chestnuts albums-

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –and Bob McQuillen albums.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: And so for you, this was like that for you.

Dudley: Sure

Julie: These are the albums you were listening to.

Dudley: Yup

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: And I didn’t use–when I called my first—I called my first dance to it, in Norfolk

County Agricultural High School, near Walpole, Mass, and I used a recording, and it was on Star Label.

It was French. And the two of us Reel de  Gondolier, which was really the Crooked Stovepipe except, it was crooked, and it wouldn’t wait for me when I was calling

Julie: [laughs] It wouldn’t wait for you!

Dudley: I said, “Mrs. Ashman, can you do this on the piano?” And from then on, I’ve never used live music—I mean, recorded music.

Julie: Okay, makes sense.

Dudley: I did–for a while there, I was training myself to call, and I would use those records to train–teach myself how to call. And then when I was up at the University of Mass, we had a dance at Bowditch Hall. It was the 4-H hall. And I liked to dance, so–and I didn’t have any musicians. So I put on the record, and that was about—and it didn’t take me long to get into live music, and then stay that way.

Julie: Mm-hm. Now, did you–when you moved to New Hampshire and you joined the dancing there, what was that experience like?

Dudley: Well, when I first moved, at that particular time, there was really a dearth of musicians.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: They were all dying off. Up in that area, we had Howard Gardner, and then there were a couple of others who played the fiddle, and at that time, Bob McQuillen was playing, and he was only playing the keyboard–accordion, he wasn’t playing the keyboard–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Yeah. So I could get him, and Sylvia–and there were a couple of others, but

really, there wasn’t much, you know?

Julie: Piano players?

Dudley: Uh, no.

Julie: Hm!

Dudley: But I had Joe Ryan. Did you ever hear of him?

Julie: No

Dudley: Well, he lived in Northfield, New Hampshire, and he lived off in the woods, built some yurts, and encouraged people to come live there so–you know Bonnie Raitt?

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Her brother. So–

Julie: Huh!

Dudley: –and her father. And Bonnie. She lived there for a while. And then the Hanson brothers. So we began to get some young people involved, interested in music. And then my ex-wife, Cynthia, played the piano, and Sylvia on the accordion, and Nicholas S. Howe was playing fiddle, and I was playing accordion and calling.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And at the beginning, to get that going—and then we got invited down to Newport Folk Festival, in 1965.

Dudley: So I’ve pulled together a bunch of musicians. Not McQuillen. He was off on some other track and wasn’t interested. But, Walter Lob, and Dave Fuller–Dave played the accordion, and Nicholas Howe and Newt Tolman on the flute.

Julie: Oh, yeah!

Dudley: And then I brought a bunch of dancers down from Nelson–

Julie: Yeah, and the rest is history, as they say.

Dudley: Oh, we stole the show. That was the same year that Bob McQuillen went electric.

Julie: Bob McQuillen went electric?

Dudley: Yeah

Lindsay Holden: Bob Dylan.

Julie: Bob Dylan!

Dudley: I’m sorry.

Julie: Good, okay, I was like, “But this is another story!” That would be cool

Dudley: Yeah, I’m sorry

Julie: That would be cool! [laughing]

Dudley: I got my words confused.

Julie: Yeah!

Dudley: Anyway, and I didn’t find out about him doing that till I was on my way home. It was on the radio, Bob. Bob Dylan went electric.

Dudley: But when we came off the stage from playing, there was about ten of us playing, and it

was a pretty rich sound. And there were about ten–six or seven—eight couples dancing. And I asked everybody to dress up like they do in Nelson. I was wearing a white suit, and everybody wears a suit and tie, women had very long dresses. But there was one couple that came, Lauren Puffer, he lived in Loudon, New Hampshire, and he didn’t–he wasn’t a Monadnock region, and he and his wife had only been to a couple of dances. But I wanted ‘em. I wanted people there so the audience could see what this is like.

Julie: Mm-hm. So was that normal for everyone to wear suits, or was this like a special occasion?

Dudley: No, they dressed up, a pretty tweedy bunch.

Julie: So if you were just playing a regular dance, what would you wear?

Dudley: Suit and tie.

Julie: Suit and tie.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: Yeah. People would dress up to kinda–

Dudley: There’s no sneakers and jeans, in those days.

Julie: Yeah. Now people just wear whatever they want, shirts, t-shirts–

Dudley: Yeah.  [crosstalk] It’s changing a little bit. Most women dress up, when I see ‘em at dances

these days. But the guys, they wear black shoes, black socks up to here, and then shorts, running shorts, and white legs and they haven’t tanned yet–

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: –and then a tank top. I can’t imagine a woman wanting to dance with him.

I just can’t imagine it.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: But they’re beginning to change. Guys are beginning to wear trousers and–

Julie: So you’re talking about this full, rich sound.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: What would be your perfect fantasy contra band?

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: What would it have in it?

Dudley: Accordion–

Julie: Two fiddles–

Dudley: Fiddles, accordion, string bass, and piano.

Julie: String bass, piano, no guitar?

Dudley: No.

Julie: You haven’t talked about guitar at all, really

Dudley: Well, I mean, recently, you know–we’ve got a guitar player now, Bob Reed

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: He’s in the–Tuftonboro, New Hampshire, and he plays

guitar for us a lot. And he’s the only one.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: He’s really good.

Julie: Mm-hm. And is it guitar and piano, or one or the other?

Dudley: One or the other, he used to play them both.

Julie: Yeah, no, not at the same time.

Dudley: Sometimes we would. The other night we had a dance in Nelson and we had Gordon Peery on the piano and Randy Miller on the fiddle and Lindsay on the fiddle and me on the accordion and Sam….

Julie: Oh yeah, Sam the accordionist! From here!

Dudley: Yeah, well, he lives in Nelson, you see [crosstalk]

Julie: Oh, cool!

Dudley: So he showed up, and then there was a fellow playing electric guitar, and then we had a saxophone player for a while.

Julie: Electric guitar, bold.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Cool! I mean, like, Airdance had guitar and piano for a long time.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: With David Surette, sometimes the mandolin–

Dudley: Yep

Julie: What do you think of that sound?

Dudley: That’s a nice sound. The sound I like is the–I told you about

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: ‘Scuse me. And I guess the thing that I lament is that we never found anybody to reproduce that. And Barbara Paul and I both agree that that was a very elusive sound.

Julie: Yeah, what was–I would love to go back to listen to those recordings of him and figure out, is it the groove he’s playing with? Is it the way he plays the tunes? [crosstalk]

Dudley: Yeah. Well, the 78 recordings with Walter Ericson on the accordion were close. But, again, didn’t have it. Didn’t have it. There was an echo to that barn. But like I said, it was Dick Richardson. It was just him.

Dudley: No matter where he’s playing. Even in my cellar, you know and it just had a thing to the way he

played it–

Dudley: –the way he played the lilts and the boing…fantastic. [laughs] Never seen anything like it. But you were asking about -back in those days, they didn’t do medleys.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: They didn’t do medleys. And the tempos were apt to be more moderate and fast–

Julie: Yeah, let’s talk about tempo for a second. ‘Cause I think modern dancers expect faster tempos–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –and I think it’s a big difference in the way they’re moving. And some people say, well, you know, it’s about the footwork, that people–like, say you have a dancer and there’s actives and

There’s inactives, and you’re out and You’re not dancing, you could be doing some footwork, and then slower tempos are better–like, can you talk about how the tempos fit the dance then–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –and how you like ‘em now?

Dudley: Yeah, well the tempos then were slower, and that made the music feel richer. That was in the Monadnock region. In Boston, it was faster–and the people doing step-dancing in

those days, they didn’t.

Dudley: When they were inactive, they were inactive.

Julie: They just hung out.

Dudley: Yeah, watched what was going on, learning something, but they didn’t have to be boogie-ing all the time. Now you’ll hear Chorus Jig now, besides the fact that they played a ridiculous tune for the second tune, when the actives are going down the side, the inactives are going swinging in the middle. That changes it.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: It’s not Chorus Jig anymore.

Julie: Yeah. So would you rather no Opera Reel? You’d just rather have it straight?

Dudley: Yeah, well why did they pick that up anyway, the Opera Reel? It’s a great tune but–

Julie: It’s a great tune, but why there?

Dudley: Well, the only reason that I can think of is, the dance is similar to Chorus Jig, the dance Opera Reel.

Julie: No one dances the dance Opera Reel anymore.

Dudley: Well, they do it if I play it for them. If I play for contra dances, I’ll do that dance–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and I suggest to them, play Chorus Jig

as an alternate tune–

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: They don’t like it. They just don’t like it. [laughs]

Julie: [laughing] That’s funny.

Dudley: [laughs] But Chorus Jig? I’ll drop out if it’s not that tune, you know, it’s gotta be that tune. I remember one time down at Buffalo Gap, I was hired to come down there and play, I had Sylvia and Tim at my side, and Vince. After supper, they’ll have a little aperitif, and then the evening program

will start, they’ll do some dancing. So we lined up there in the dining room and Isaid, Oh, let’s do Chorus Jig. So, they had a bunch of musicians there, so I danced. Sylvia was playing. I got down there at the end and see she’s switched into…The Deer Song ??? –it’s a song Bob McQuillen wrote about deers.

Julie: Hm, I don’t know.

Dudley: Not The Deer Hunter. Oh, Dancing Bear!

Julie: Oh, Dancing Bear! Yeah.

Dudley: She switched into that. Well, it’s in minor.

Julie: Oh yeah, she told us about that. [laughs]

Dudley: [laughs] Yeah, switched into that. So afterwards—and so I dropped out!

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: And then afterwards, I came up to give her hell. I said, Jesus, girl, what the hell’d you change into that for? She said, If you know which side your bread’s buttered on, you’ll do it! [laughs]

Julie: [laughs]

Lindsay: [laughs]

Julie: So, where–

Dudley: But then I used to be able to say, You haven’t won the Governor’s Award. But she did! [laughs]

Julie: Well, then you couldn’t hold that over her anymore.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: So how long would you–like, today it seems very standard, this is like a little thing I wonder about, it seems very standard for a band to need to play like two or three tunes, and I almost think most of the time the one tune is like, you shouldn’t do that; it’s like, too boring–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –needs to be interesting. And–are the dances being run longer than they used to, or did people just expect something different back then? Like, would you do Chorus Jig for eight minutes, ten minutes?

Dudley: Yep!

Julie: Not get bored of that tune?

Dudley: Nope. Never. Never ever get bored.

Julie: No.

Dudley: In fact, if anybody gets bored playing this music, they have no business playing it. They should go do something else. The tunes are meant for constant repetition, and you can do things with them if you want; I like playing them the same way all the time, but you can play them in such a manner that you can play around with the tunes. You don’t need to switch to another one.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: One time, we went to a dance in Concord, Mass. It was the Cotillion, and it was Tony Parkes that was calling, and the—a mixture of Wild Asparagus and Swallowtail bands. And they’re good, they have a good sound. So anyway, Tony said, We’re going to do the Money Musk. So I get up there with Ernie Spence. Did you know Ernie Spence?

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: Great dancer. And so we went down the line together. Well, we got about three-quarters of the way down, and they changed the tunes. So we both dropped out!

Julie: Of the dance.

Dudley: And went and leaned against the wall. We said, We can’t dance this to Money Musk. And they would switch back, so we jumped back in.

Julie: [laughing]

Dudley: Afterwards, you know, I went up to Tony, I went up to–What’s his name?–Peter and I said, What’s this? What are you changing for? and he said, Well, the fiddlers get tired, they get bored, and I said, The feet won’t work unless it’s that tune, and he wrote it down in his notebook, and It’s still there, as far as I know. Dudley says feet won’t work unless we use the tune. [laughs]

Julie: Well, that’s the thing, you learn the dance and you learn how your body goes with the phrases of the tune.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Why would you wanna change that halfway, you know?

Dudley: They get bored.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: Now, Money Musk is hard to play. That’s tough on the fingers. But there’s ways of getting around that, too. You don’t have to play all the notes.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: John Kirkpatrick wrote the–I think it was John Kirkpatrick, he was an accordion player from England? Wrote a great essay called Medley Mania–and he said, One of these days, I’m

gonna run a workshop and we’re gonna play Bobby Schafto until it comes out our ears.

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: [laughs]

Julie: [laughing] That’s great. So…if you were playing the Canterbury Dance Orchestra, would you just pick one tune and play that–

Dudley: Yup

Julie: –for a dance?

Dudley: Yup

Julie: Yeah. Do you call dances that feel like modern contra dances?

Dudley: No. Well, I–of course, I don’t—I’ve been to dances where they do modern dances–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and I’m not particularly enamored of it. Now, partly is that I’m losing my balance, and I don’t like to move that fast, and–but I don’t feel that I have to be moving all the time.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: I don’t mind standing still and watching. You might learn something when you watch.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: So I’m not particularly enamored of ‘em. And a lot of them, I get the feeling that the callers are inventing new ones. Now there could be a reason–lots of reasons why they do it, but one is they

want the time in the limelight, because everybody’s doing something and it’s creative–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –you know, and so they wanna make a show, so they make something that may be more difficult than the one before them–and so you get these dances that have gypsies and heys, and once and five-eighths around, you know, I mean, it gets–I just don’t enjoy that. I rather have my feet close to the floor and do jigging and be able to relate to my partner and anyone else on the floor, and I’m not interested in doing a dance that has a partner-neighbor swing. Doesn’t matter. Don’t have to be—as long as you get your partner swinging.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: That’s why I don’t like Lady Walpole’s Reel, because they Don’t swing with your partner, you swing with your neighbor.

Dudley: But I have written a couple of dances. But they’re all in, you know, really traditional. But I wrote one to Morgan Megan, the tune Morgan Megan, which–do you know that tune? It’s an

Irish tune.

Julie: I’ve heard it.

Dudley: Yeah. Well, it feels like it’s got 28 measures, but it’s not. It’s got 32. It’s just the way they fall. So I wrote a dance to fit that. And then I’ve written a couple of others, but that’s not particularly what I’m interested in doing. I’ve written 15 tunes also–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and then three tunes that are variations.

I’ve got one called

Mozart which is a variation on his K417–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and one on Haydn and one on Handel.

Julie: But you turned ‘em into New England dance

tunes, too?

Dudley: Yeah, a little bit.

Julie: Yeah?

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: So what is a good dance tune, in your mind?

Dudley: Oh, Money Musk. [laughs]

Julie: [laughs] Even though you said people didn’t

like the dance

much.

Dudley: In Boston.

Julie: In Boston.

Dudley: Oh no, I want to finish that one. I wentup to New Hampshire. There was that band, the New Hampshire band, and there was a girl there–there were three of them, they were all redheads, the Ramsey girls. Their father ran the post office. So June Ramsey was the one I wanted to dance with, and I went up and asked her for a next dance. She said, Well, I’ve got the next two booked, but the one after that’ll be Money Musk. You can do that one. I said, I don’t wanna dance Money Musk with you! and she said, You wait. Jesus! The Williams twins were there. Alan Williams, still alive. Art Williams, Alan Williams, little taps on their shoes.

Julie: Hm

Dudley: And they did a shuffle-clog on the thing. Music was slow, it had a nice tempo, and Ralph chanted that call, and like I said, there was that great band. But–everybody knew the dances. And if they didn’t, they’d get pushed and shoved through it. But Money Musk was just–that had a special quality to it, the way they were dancing it.

Dudley: So, I don’t know what I was talking about

Julie: You were talking about the thinner sounds.

Dudley: Oh yeah, they wanted a thinner kind of sound, and they really wanted Irish music, and they wanted us to go that way, wanted The Canterbury Orchestra  to go that way, and I– ‘Sorry,’ I said, ‘You guys gonna go off on your own,’ which they did–   So anyway, that–I just said, ‘That’s okay–’ Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: ‘I mean, it’s not what I wanna do.’ But I did make a recording with Randy and Fred Breunig and Jack Perron. It was called Itinerant License. Itinerant License. I formed it, did it myself. And I wanted to appease those guys, so I tried to do it their way. And I was in charge of selling the recording, and it went out of print. That wasn’t my favorite. Julie: Hm

Dudley: It wasn’t my favorite And the recording that Bill [Spence]– runs the record company over there in Vorheesville New York,‘‘‘–can’t think of the name of it. Anyway, it produced a recording called–oh, jeez ‘‘‘–it was a reel, an Irish reel, I can’t think of the name of it. But anyway, he wanted us to do that, and we did. We spent a week there. Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Had to play every tune five times.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: When we do the Canterbury Orchestra ones, it’s once.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: That’s it. Just one time per–

Julie: One take, that’s all you get.

Dudley: Yeah, and if it doesn’t work, forget it. We won’t do it. So–and no medleys. We don’t do any medleys.

Julie: Mm-hm.’

Dudley: No.

Julie: I notice the bands today play a lot less jigs these days.

Dudley: Well, we played one a few–

Julie: Yeah!

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: What do you like–like, what roles do jigs have for the dance?

Dudley: Well, they just fit the dance. They’re bouncy.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: You know? Some dances work both ways.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: Morning Star works well to a jig or a reel. And some dances work much better as a jig.

Julie: Yeah. So you think of jigs as being bouncy?

Dudley: Well, sort of.

Julie: Most of the time.

Dudley: But I went to a dance out in Wisconsin one time, and a girl came–a woman came in, and she was kinda tough. She had a big badge on, said, ‘No Jigs’. [laughs]

Julie: [laughs] That’s funny! ‘Cause now a lot of callers ask for jigs when they want something smooth. They say ‘smooth jigs’.

Dudley: Yeah. Well, they don’t know what they’re talking about, most of them.

Julie: Yeah. It’s interesting. I feel like, as a dance musician, that the role of jigs has changed, where jigs used to be bouncy, but now people ask for them when they want something smooth, which I don’t always understand.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: ‘Cause a good bouncy jig is a–

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: –a mighty thing.

Dudley: Yep.

Julie: And also, I feel like most musicians think reels are what you play most of the time, with the occasional jigs–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –sprinkled in.

Dudley: Well, in the southern mountains, they don’t do jigs. In fact, I’ve got a recording of somebody playing, and he tries to play Pop Goes the Weasel, and…it just [laughing]  segues into 2/4 time.

Julie: Wow….So those guys are trying to bring in the Irish influence. What was it like for you when you saw bands like Swallowtail forming, or Wild Asparagus, or eventually Nightingale?

Dudley: Yeah. I didn’t know much about ‘em. I was very busy–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –at that time. Had all the gigs I couldhandle–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –you know, and then some, so I really wasn’t paying much attention to it. But, like I said, I thought, ‘Well, maybe I should at least learn something about this.’ That’s why we did the record, Itinerant Musicians License. But…the Canterbury Orchestra was the way I wanted to do it.

Julie: So if you were gonna think of the quintessential contra dance band–like, what was it like, well before you and the Canterbury Dance Orchestra Do you think it was fiddles and pianos–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –mostly’

Dudley: Yeah. And McQuillen came along with the accordion. But it was mostly fiddles. String bass, cello type of thing.

Dudley: And if they didn’t–you know, before the day of the keyboard, they had drums, or a cello–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –to carry the bass.

Julie: Mm-hm. Why do you think the tempos are faster in Boston’

Dudley: Well, they lead a faster life. It’s a faster paced sort of life.

Julie: Huh, that’s interesting.

Dudley: I think that has to do it, do with it, and also the complicated answers have to do with it. They bring their work right into the dance.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: Which is kinda too bad, I think.

Julie: Huh.

Dudley: I kinda like it like–the dance is kind of an entity unto itself, got a life of its own, and I don’t think it’d be reflecting the computer programmers. But that’s me. [chuckles]

Julie: Hm. ‘Cause I’ve noticed the dancers kind of want a certain kind of thing. They want a certain kind of calling, and they want a certain kind of music.

Dudley: Yup.

Julie: So these things, like, feed each other–

Dudley: Yup

Julie: –in a way, and it seems like dancers want faster tempos and they want flashy tunes–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –and they want kind of exciting moments–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –things like that.

Dudley: Yeah. And I think that a lot of the dancers, when the band will change keys–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and the band starts to–and the dancers will go ‘Hoo!’ They’ll holler. You know.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: My guess would be that most of them don’t even know that something’s happened. They make a holler because everybody else is.

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: But they’re not aware that something has happened.

Julie: So, the magic in a slower dance, when—I had a friend call it ‘shock and awe’ contra dancing, when you’re, like, taking the dancers on a rollercoaster ride, but you’re taking the attention away from the community, and putting it, like, on the music, like–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –rather than on the dancing experience.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: So, when it’s, like, a slow tempo, and one tune for a long time, how do you spend—how do the dancers spend their time’ Like, chatting to each other, or–like, where is our focus if it’s not on the music’ ‘Cause you can kind tune the tune out, at that point, if it’s, of course–jig’s been goin’ on for five minutes straight. I just wonder if it’s, their attention is in a different place.

Dudley: Well, I know that in my particular case, if I’m dancing with Lindsay – eye contact, you know, even though we’re not active.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: So I’m relating to her as well as to the whole dance. To me, it’s a social function.

And it doesn’t matter whether I’m working with adults that dance or adults that don’t dance or kids. It’s courtship. Even with kids. They may not know it, and their teachers may not know it, but that’s–I think that’s what’s happening. And I think that’s the role of this kinda dancing, and it’s important in that it’s–it has a little bit more to it than rock and roll. There’s nothing wrong with that, either. Julie: Mm-hm.

Dudley: But it has more to it, and it really does

tie into the community and the courtship part.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: More, I think. And that’s–you know, I mean, some of the tunes can–there’s a lot of emotion with some of these tunes, and some of them can bring tears to my eyes, just the way they’re played, when they’re played, where they’re played. But it’s just—the way those notes rise and fall–there’s a tune called Enrico, I taught it to Katie—was it Katy, Katy Newell. The daughter.

Lindsay: Maisie.

Julie: Maisie.

Dudley: Maisie! Yeah.

Julie: Yeah!

Dudley: When she was a kid. She still plays it. Even when she was a kid. It’s a tune called Enrico or Jacob. It’s a hornpipe. But when Thomas Hardy was a young boy, he was four or five years old, played it in the family band, he had one of those little melodians, and his dad would play that tune, and he had to leave the room. He cried. And he was embarrassed, so he would go in the other room and cry.

Julie: Mm

Dudley: He cried.

[Music]

Julie: So, yesterday we left off talking about–I’m interested in this idea of, like, what in your mind is the perfect contra dance music.

Dudley: Oh, yeah, okay. Did I say anything?

Julie: [laughs] Yeah, you did. You talked about fiddle style a little bit, and we talked about medleys and tempo.

Dudley: Yep

Julie: Do you know what kind of tempo is ideal for you?

Dudley: Well, for me, I have a tendency to play a little fast, because I’m used to

playing for children, who dance faster.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: But my preference is to have it fairly slow And, of course, then I played for a morris side, and I have a tendency to go with Bampton tradition, which is faster– So the leader of our morris team is always going, “Slow! Slow down!”

Dudley: But I like ‘em moderate tempo.

Julie: Is that like “ka-dun ka-da-dun” kinda tempo, or–

Dudley: Hm, let’s see. [vocalizes on da-da-dum] About like that.

Julie: Okay.

Dudley: Yeah. Moderate.

Julie: Good, that’s good to know. That’s good to know. So what in your mind makes a tune the perfect tune for contra dancing?

Dudley: Well, there’s more than one.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: Yeah. I like Enrico or Jacob.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: That’s the tune that Thomas Hardy played when he was a kid. Well, and of course, the standards, you know, Money Musk and–but, you know, those are names. Do you want a generic tune that would be perfect?

Julie: Yeah, like if you’re playing for a dance that doesn’t have a tune that goes along with it, or–?

Dudley: Well, Enrico is a good one.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Yeah. And then for jigs–well, there’s a number of them. Rolling Off a Log is a good one, Blackbird Quadrille–

Julie: How does Rolling Off a Log go?

Dudley: It’s in two keys. [vocalizes on da-da-dum] So it’s called Rolling Off a Log and in Maine they call it

Upriver.

Julie: Mm-hm. Upriver.

Dudley: Yep.

Julie: That’s great…yeah, what else?

Dudley: Well, those–another jig that I like is…Maid of the Mill

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: It’s a morris dance tune but it’s also an early American tune. So there really is–you know, it depends on  who’s playing it, and we have favorites. Like, I–I like Speed the Plow

Julie: Yeah!

Dudley: But I like it as the English version, in the key of G–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –so they don’t play all the heavy notes.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: I like that. And there’s others.  I can’t just bring ‘em to mind now, but there’s others that would be good for it. But some would be good one night, and not the next night.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Depending on?

Dudley: On the dancers, weather–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Yeah. The hall, the time of season–

Julie: Your mood.

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk] Oh, the dancers were–

Lindsay: Don’t you use, like, Road to Boston, Redwing, Cock of the North? I don’t know if that helps at all?

Julie: Yeah.

Lindsay: Welcome Here Again

Dudley: Yeah

Lindsay: Well, the other night, we did Zinnia’s Reel

Julie: Saint Az

Lindsay: Crooked Stovepipe. What were those others? Couple that I couldn’t play.

Dudley: Leather Away the Wattle Hole

Lindsay: Oh yeah, that one.

Dudley: Yup

Lindsay: But in Nelson, there’s a couple others.

Julie: Hm!

Lindsay: He’s got a million tunes.

Julie: Yeah!

Lindsay: [laughs] That’s the thing!

Dudley: Well, I don’t give ‘em all out. You know, back in the day, a fiddler, you only needed to know maybe 20 or 30 tunes, and that would suffice for the lifetime.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: They weren’t in the habit of learning new ones. Preferred the old ones. Didn’t really wanna learn anything new. There’s that book called 66 Years of Fiddling. It’s about George Overlock?

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: His son put the book together. George was a fiddler in this area, right around here, and he played for dances, and the favorite dance was Lady of the Lake. They’d do it two or three times a night, four times a night.

Julie: Wow, really?

Dudley: Yep. And he had a list of tunes which included Campbells Are Coming and the White Cockade, tunes like that, and that’s the ones they used.

Julie: So they’d do three or four times a night, with the same tunes every time?

Dudley: Not always.

Julie: So you could do it a few times, but with a different tune each time?

Dudley: Yeah, if you wanted to. But Bob McQuillen wrote new ones all the time, and I never got the feeling that George Overlock wanted to learn anything new. And I know Dick Richardson didn’t want to learn anything new, either. He fiddled for me.  He just liked the old tunes.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: So–and I’m more inclined to be like that than I am wanting to learn something new, but I learned a new one today from, I forgot really how it goes, but I learned it from Pascal?

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: It’s called…The Waves of St. Lawrence

Julie: Oh, I don’t know that tune.

Dudley: It’s nice.

Julie: I’ll have to learn it from him.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: How has what you call and play changed over the years? Like, you’ve had a really long calling career.

Dudley: Yeah. Well…

Lindsay:: Oh, you had asked him how much all of this has changed

Dudley: Oh, yeah yeah yeah

Julie: Yeah, I asked how what you call and play–

Dudley: Oh, oh yeah–

Julie: has changed over the years

Dudley: Well, when I first started calling dances, I only knew a couple of squares, Crooked Stovepipe, Darling Nellie Grey, Golden Slippers. And then I did contras: Lady of the Lake, Chorus Jig, Money Musk, Petronella, Hull’s Victory. And that’s all I did…for contras. And that went along pretty good for quite some time, and I had a large crowd of kids following me around. But it changed, like, you know, these things change, and new callers came in. It became–it was quite easy to get a contra dance band going. It was not like a rock and roll band. Buy yourself a fiddle and you’re in business.

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: And so–but anyway, the competition became very stiff, and the youngsters wanted more difficult dances, and faster, and it just wasn’t my cup of tea. So I started–and then the Canterbury Orchestra

stopped playing for a while. And then my partner Patty and I broke up, and–so I was doing stuff on my own, and I found it was–well, at that time I was also working in schools, and dancing with kids in schools is a lot different from dancing with the back-to-the-land hippies, you know. So I started doing some very easy whole set dances, and I got those from the Community Dance Manual. But then I went to England, and I found out what they were doing over there, and then I wanted to go back to find out what they were doing over there. That was the change. And that’s what I do now, and only once in a great great while, maybe four times a year I’ll have a bona fide contra dance where I’m calling contras. Otherwise it’s the other things. Julie: So, to see if I understand right, you—there was a lot of different competition among callers and bands.

Dudley: Yup. Yup.

Julie: And it was going in a direction that you didn’t wanna go in.

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I hadn’t really too much choice. I mean, I just wasn’t getting hired.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: And, you know, we have to struggle now to get gigs.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: I mean, I don’t do much in the way of advertising or soliciting, but–don’t have as many as you used to have. I mean, two years, three years in a row, I’ve had over 300 gigs a year.

Julie: [laughs] Whoa, I can’t even imagine.

Dudley: But–

Julie: Wow

Dudley: –the last couple years, it’s gone down to about 80 or 90.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: But still, a lot.

Julie: That’s still a lot.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: Yeah, I play about 100 gigs a year–

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: –so I can’t even imagine doing–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –300. That’s a busy schedule.

Dudley: Yeah. It was work.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: On the road a lot.

Dudley: Oh yeah. And your star falls, and new people come along, and that’s okay, ‘cause that shows that the dancing is healthy.

Julie: It’s like a living tradition and it’s gonna evolve

Dudley: Yeah. But it’s something we have to deal with ourselves. We can’t take it out on the crowd.

Julie: [laughs] Right.

Dudley: You’d like to, but you can’t.

Julie: Right. As long as the dance doesn’t go in a direction that’ll make it extinct, you know? Like, people tell the story of, like, Modern Western Square Dancing–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –and how it got so complicated–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –that then, you know, you had to be in a club to do it, and–

Dudley: You wear an outfit

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: And now, contra dancing, the magic of it right now is you can go anywhere in the country, and you can do it.

Dudley: Yeah, ‘course you used to be able to do Western square dancing too.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: Not only in the country; in the world.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: But it’s–same thing’s happening to the contra dances, keep getting more complex–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and more adaptable to people who like it complex, and–but David Millstone said that he sees on his observations bit at the contra dancing is on a low ebb–is slowing down.

And that’s happened–it’s happened in this current revival. Since I first started, I’ve seen it do that twice.

Julie: Mm-hm. When were the first times you saw it do that?

Dudley: Oh, it was when I–when I stopped working with the Canterbury Orchestra, it went into a low ebb then, and it was sort of built back up again.  Well, with the first time it started building up was after The Beatles came to town–

Julie: Mm

Dudley: –and then right after that, Bob Dylan. And we hit the bottom, and bounced right back up again.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And both those guys, The Beatles and Bob Dylan, contributed a lot to our popularity.

Julie: How so?

Dudley: Well, they had a following, you know, and a lot of those people were–sort of left the cities and went back to the land and they found the contra dance was–it fit their image.

Julie: Mmm!

Dudley: You know, they were dancing, you know, they were touching each other. You know, of course, in rock and roll, you don’t. Not always. You don’t always. And, you know, it just fit their image more, what was going on. Not so much the Beatles. More Bob Dylan. The Beatles just sing.

Julie: So these ebbs and flows happen in all sorts of things.

Dudley: Oh sure.

Julie: So, you know, you have the perspective of someone who’s, like, seen this come and go a few times. What’s your take on what’s happening now?

Dudley: Oh, well…we don’t do that much in the way of contra dances, so it’s really hard to tell.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: But in general, up in central New Hampshire, for the most part, it’s an aging crowd. It’s not–there’s not too many young people. We don’t see them. But we hear that here up in Belfast, they have a terrific younger crowd.

Julie: Yeah.

Dudley: Yeah. And other parts. Around the Boston area, there’s some young people. But we don’t–I don’t see it up in Concord.

Julie: Mm-hm.

Dudley: As much. There’s–once in a while, a bunch of kids will come in from St. Paul’s School, but it’s not a regular–there’s not any regular kids. One of them dances quite a lot. What’s her name? She’s here.

Lindsay: Theresa?

Dudley: No. Late George’s friend. She plays the fiddle.

Lindsay: Oh, Sara.

Dudley: Sara. Sara what’s her last name?…Well anyway, she’s part of that young crowd.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And she’s here. But she’s one! You know–

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: –there’s a lot, there’s a lot of young people here, though. And–

Julie: How about in Nelson? You ever go to Nelson?

Dudley: Yeah, well, we played for a dance there the other night. There were hardly any real young kids there.

Lindsay: Not really young, no.

Dudley: There used to be. It’s an older crowd.

Julie: It’s probably [crosstalk] about five years since I’ve been there.

Lindsay: But they did a younger group from–

Dudley: Well, the Monday night dance they

had a crowd.

Lindsay: Yeah

Julie: Maybe it’s the Monday dance where I saw a bunch of teenagers–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –and stuff like that.

Dudley: Well, they come from that music school. In Sullivan, there’s a music school there.

Julie: Oh, interesting.

Dudley: A lot of kids come from that. And, but during the wintertime, they still get a good batch of young kids.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: But we don’t see it, so we’re not seeing too much of the way they’re dancing, but some of the callers really will do dance—almost every dance has a hey in it.

Dudley: And if not that, a gypsy and…those are all English terms. We never did–well, the colonials, early American dances, they did the heys. They didn’t do gypsies, but they did the heys. And then it just stopped. I would say around…Civil War, they just stopped using those terms. Oh, a lot of it was, you know, telling England, “Go to hell!”, you know ‘Look, Pa, no hands’

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: –and that didn’t change until Ted Sanella and Tony Parks and–what was the other guy?—Tony Saletan started putting some of the English moves back into the dances. So they started doing the heys and the gypsies. Like, a gypsy is easy enough, but I don’t enjoy it. That eye contact? I just don’t like it. When you’re going by, say, on a gypsy–

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: I remember one time I was at a—I was in–where was it?–here in Maine, they were doing a–one of those with two, two of your partners, beside you, and across from—what was it called?

Lindsay:: Becket?

Dudley: Beckets! Yeah. So I was dancing a becket, and so I had to do something with the opposite lady, and I—she said, “You’re supposed to look me in the eye.” You know? Who says?

Julie: That’s a lot of eye contact.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: When–I was just in England, in March, and when they dance contas over there, they don’t use so much eye contact.

Dudley: No, absolutely

Julie: And when they do what they–what we call “English contra dancing”, which they often call “Playford”, they don’t do nearly as much eye contact as we do here.

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: So it seemed–but did it always used to be that way? It probably didn’t.

Dudley: No, it was somebody who danced English dancing here introduced it.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And–but if you tried that in some parts of England, somebody’d take you out in the parking lot.

Julie: [laughs] Yeah.

Dudley: You know, it’s just not–and I hate it. You know.

Julie: And it’s one of the harder things for new dancers.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: I had a friend who wanted to dance, and he’s like, “There’s people in my

personal bubble.”

Dudley: That’s right.

Julie: They’re not used to having–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –everyone in your space.

Dudley: A lot of women feel like they’re being assaulted, and–

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: Billy Martin, Wild Billy Martin lived out in Oregon and Washington, and he said, “If I want somebody to look me in the face, I’ll go to my eye doctor.”

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: And then–and then Ralph Sweet used to say, “What, have I got spinach in my teeth?”

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: [laughs]

Julie: Do you think the music relates to that at all? Like, do you think the changing music and dancing together are just a reflection of dancing–like, changing times and different desires from the dancers?  Or maybe dancing serves a different role in people’s lives?

Dudley: I think the callers are responsible. But most of the callers don’t play the music.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: A lot of them have nothing. A lot of them are afraid of the band. And I sense that some of them are–’cause they’ll turn to the band, say, “Gimme some jigs,” and then turn away, they’ll look away.

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: You know. And a lot of times they don’t know what they’re talking about when they say, “Give me some jigs.”

Julie: Uh-huh

Dudley: And so, in order to gain some of the attention that the band’s getting, they want these more complicated dances, and then it becomes a competition between them and another caller, who can write the most complicated and interesting dances.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And so there’s a crowd out there that likes complicated. Their life’s, their work is complicated work, computers and teaching and whatever–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: They like that. They don’t know how to leave it there and do something else with their recreational time. They bring that right into their work.

Julie: Yeah, they want to be, like, mentally stimulated–

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: –in a way.

Dudley: And as far as I’m concerned, you dance with your feet, not your head.

Julie: Mm-hm. Yeah, there’s been times when I was dancing to some really complicated choreography and it was fun as, like, a change–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –like, a variety. But I wouldn’t want it to be the bread and

butter of-

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –you know?

Dudley: And the average crowd we play for can’t even begin to do heys and gypsies, so I don’t–because they don’t teach, you know, those. They don’t spend any time teaching, you just get ‘em going. They’re just simple moves. But I know that–well, not so much Nelson, because Nelson had Ralph Page, but there’re other dance places, like in Canterbury, where they had a–it was a Baptist community, so there was no dancing.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And in Northwood, neighboring town, they had a lot of Baptist people there that—and they had–they didn’t call them “dances”,  they call them “marches”.

Julie: Hm

Dudley: But they did similar dances. But, anyway, town of Canterbury burned to the ground in April of 1943, and they had a night when the temperature dropped down to 30 below in April–

Julie: Whoa

Dudley: –and a wind came through, a 60-mile-an-hour wind, and it rattled the stovepipe close to the grange hale–

Julie: Oh, yeah

Dudley: That came down and caught the building on fire. And so, anyway, it burned the church, and

burned two or three houses, and it burned–it didn’t burn the town hall, but it burned the store and the grange hall. And in order to raise money–and they didn’t have a fire department. Some people lived on the west side of town. It was during mud season, and they came to town to get the mail and there was no town.

Dudley: And so to raise money to do that, they formed a band. And in a Baptist town, that was a chore, but they had Paul Ambo play the banjo, and Ruth Rogers played the piano–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and Charlie Walter played the drums. And then the minister–I don’t know his name–played the clarinet.

Julie: Huh

Dudley: That was the band.

Julie: It was the contra band.

Dudley: Yeah. Well, it was a band.

Julie: Right

Dudley: And they did flower waltzes and polkas and–

Julie: Nice

Dudley: –and foxtrots. But they would to two Virginia Reels, Portland Fancy  twice, The Paul Jones, and a Grand March.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: You didn’t need a caller for those.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And they’d use the same tunes, the same dances, and everybody loved it. And that was just finishing when I came into town.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: Now, in Canterbury, we have–on January 26th, we celebrate the birthday of Robert Burns.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: Burns night.

Julie: Burns night!

Dudley: And then in February, we don’t do anything. In March, we do a maple sugar party and a Irish party.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: We call it–Irish party’s called ???. Play in a sugarhouse, that’s how we

get our supply of syrup. If we don’t do anything in May, we do the Sweets of Mays, a dance called the Sweets of May. The we do that wherever we can, town hall or grange hall or our house. And then, June, we don’t do anything. July, there’s the Canterbury Fair–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –and the morris dancers dance there. August, we take it off. September, we get into–from then until Christmas, we have several nights. And it was–what was it?–on Boxing Day, we have a dance.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And so–but, they’re at different times, different venues, and there’s—I don’t think we could get away with running a dance on a weekly basis.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: I don’t think we could. It’s–

Julie: It wouldn’t be enough.  It’s more of a community kinda thing.

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: Pull the community together

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Which you need in a small town, more than a big city.

Dudley: Yeah. Canterbury’s an upwardly-mobile town. There’s a lot of black-top driveways and a lot.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: A lot of doctors and lawyers and some professional people who sort of go to one and said, “Been there done that.” But there’s enough people there so we can keep it going. And so there’s a lotta communities around, Where–well there’s George Overlock on the–he played–I saw in his book there was a dance card.  They were playing for the senior high school graduation in the town, in Walter County, here. And they would have Lady of the Lake on the program five times.

Julie: [laughing] Wow!  Wow!

Dudley: It’s–they loved it.

Julie: Yeah! And you can dance with a different partner every time.

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: So, that’s fun. That’s interesting. It’s so different then.

Dudley: But what’s her name–I’m having an awful time with names, but–fellow wrote a–did a film called Dancing in New England [New England Dances, by John Bishop], and it goes around to different venues, and one of them is the Blue Goose Ballroom here in Maine.

Dudley: And they’re doing a dance that the

band is a clarinet, saxophone, drum, and piano.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And there’s a woman doing the calling, and they’re filming the Lady of the Lake, and they’re dancing it to Babyface, which is a foxtrot.

Julie: Huh.

Dudley: So the dancing–contra dance rhythm, but–

Julie: Wow

Dudley: but the basic rhythm is a foxtrot,  and the caller— “Will you please go down the center?”

[laughs]

Julie: What would you say?

Dudley: Oh, “down the center.”

Julie: [laughs]

Dudley: But, anyway, it was interesting to see that, “Please go down the center.” And the ladies chain, they didn’t stick to any phrasing, it would tend to go–it went all across the hall. They danced one long line, and one side was on one side, and one side was on the other, so they did the ladies chain. Took ‘em a long time to get all the way to one and all the way back.

Dudley: But they didn’t pay any attention to phrasing.

Julie: Yeah, that’s interesting. Now people think a lot about phrasing.

Dudley: But I went to another dance one time, in Paris, Maine, down in the lakes, down in Missabega Lake, and they did a contra dance there, and they did Haymaker’s Jig, Lady of the Lake, Boston Fancy, and Mountain Ranger. Were all pretty much similar. And when they went down the center, when they came back, they wouldn’t cast off. They came back to their new place and went right into the ladies chain.

Julie: Huh.

Dudley: That is to say, that would be so much easier to teach. Cast-off is hard to teach.

Julie:Yeah. Yeah. So can I share a thought and get your reaction

to it? I’m curious

Dudley: Okay.

Julie: It’s–for me–like, I’m just curious, like, how the role of music and dancing has changed over the years. And from your world–like, your corner of the world of music and dance–for me, one of the things that made me want to play for contra dances was–First of all, I was like, look at this, there’s people, like you said, they’re touching each other, they’re having fun in a room full of music. The music, like, lifts you and carries you and it’s really good, like you’re talking about, really good music. And I love the connection between the music and the dance. And there’s times when I’ve been contra dancing and other bands have been playing, like Crowfoot back in the day when they were still a band, and I just felt like the whole room was moving as one, you know? Everyone’s bouncing together and swinging together. How does that fit–like, when did that kind of thing start to happen?

Dudley: Well, I think it’s always happened.

Julie: It’s always happened. That’s what I’m wondering.

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah. There are various degrees, various ways of doing it, but it’s always.

Julie: Like what I want to get at the heart is, what is the magic of contra dancing? Like, you can change the choreography, you can make it more or less complicated, but if you do too much to it, you lose its essence. It’s like that fiddling you were talking about. What is the magic that makes–

Dudley: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: –that good?

Dudley: Well, to me, it’s all three things: the band, the caller, the dancers, and the music, and the hall, and the weather.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: They all–you know, when you go to a dance in the wintertime, old town hall, and when you arrive you can smell woodsmoke, it’s very important. To me, anyway.

Julie: Yeah

Dudley: But to me, it’s all of it. It’s all of it. It’s not about the caller, it’s not about the music.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: It’s all together–

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: –making it happen. And I don’t think there–nobody is–I mean, I’m aware of that, but nobody says, when you come in the door, “Pay your way and you’ve got to be part of this” They’re gonna be anyway. You don’t have to plant it.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: It’ll happen by itself.

Julie: Yeah. People– ‘cause I feel like as long as contra still keeps that essence of what makes it magical, I think the essence of contra dancing is the kind of dancing that you don’t have to know a lot to do it. Now there’s a caller–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Maybe when people used to know the chestnuts, like in Gilmanton in New Hampshire, they could dance Chorus Jig all by themselves. They don’t need anybody.

Dudley: Yep.

Julie: But most of the time, as long as you have a caller to tell you what to do, anybody could walk in off the street and do it.

Dudley: Yep. Yeah.

Julie: And I find that modern dancers get caught up in, like, flourishing each other, and they’re not dancing for the whole hall anymore. They’re kinda showing off, or dancing for the–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –for themselves.

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Has it always been that way?

Dudley: Well, yeah, it’s–well, it all depends. Like, Walter Hall and Louie Pascarelli and some of those dancers from the Keene area, wonderful step dancers.

Julie: Mm-hm

Dudley: And Ralph Page raves about it, says Walter Hall and Louie Pascarelli are the best dancers in the Monadnock region. And they were! They were excellent. But they were just into it for the–I mean, they were part of the whole thing, but they were also getting a lot out of it themselves.

Julie: Right

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: Which is what I feel like good flourishing can be–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –where you’re having a great time, and you’re–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –keeping it stimulating for you, but also you’re–

Dudley: Yeah

Julie: –there for everybody.

Dudley: Yeah.

Julie: Yeah.

I’m just curious. It’s–

Dudley: We have to go.

Julie: Well, thank you.

Dudley: Did you have any other questions?

Julie: No, I think that’s great. We had a lot–I have a lot of fun recordings to look at.

Dudley: Yeah. All right.

Julie: I can’t wait.

[Music fades in]

Julie Vallimont: Thanks for listening to Contra Pulse. This project is supported by the Country Dance and Song Society, CDSS, and is produced by Ben Williams. Happy dancing!